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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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I got a couple from Rob. They look like Mastadons, but I don't
remember the exact shape of the base of the stem.
I got 1/2" and 3/4".
For a while they seemed to be the only tiny cams around.
Rob was making them with Dave Altman and Eben, whose last name
I can't remember.
Eben's shop is where they were made. I'm pretty sure all three
were making the cams, but maybe only Rob made enough extras to
sell.
Altman referred to them as "Associates", I guess because they
were "not quite Friends."
Rob occasionally posts here.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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yeah, posted earlier on this. all true. at some point if there's any interest maybe it would make more sense to start an early small cam historical thread. -rob
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Joe,
seller has offered to donate cams to museum for cost of shipping.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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man, I'm never selling my old gear if I need some scratch. it'll get pwned by the tacos.
;)
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dickcilley
Social climber
A cova Dos Nenos
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:35am PT
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Walt didnt make them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 10:42am PT
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Zip, yes I've been in email contact with him as well, thanks. He tried to register to post on the thread but didn't get a verification email. I've got an email into Randy to see if we can't get him an account.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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I can get word to Dave Ingersoll and see what he remembers.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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Dick,
How do you know this?
I talked with him on phone last night for a fair amount of time, and I am inclined to believe that he did in fact purchase these from Walt.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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Randy told me that he originally purchased 3 from dave. He later asked dave for 2 more, and dave directed him to walt, who sold him the other 2.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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From the seller:
I created an account on supertopo but never got my email confirmation as I wanted to respond (jh: RJ has fixed this for him).
I actually bought 3 of the same cams from Dave Ingersol but sold them in the valley for gas money to get home. The 2 on ebay I bought from Walt. I was doing some work for Dave and he told me Walt made them in college. Walt was standing there when Dave stated this and didnt say anything. So I had no reason to doubt this. Last time I talked to Dave he had just had a terrible accident soloing. He was trying to cross a glacier in tennis shoes and slipped and took a long fall. I guess he was broken up pretty bad. But on the bright side he married Stephanie and is still in Colorado.I have been trying to find him. He has a company called Park West Real estate. Same name as it was when he was in Sacto. Please let me know if anyone finds him, as I would like to talk to him. If you send me an email I can send a picture of what happens to these cams from a fall when placed horizontally.Not pretty.
[Note: I'm not posting up his name or contact info, but rather going to let him do that...]
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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my post may have been misunderstood, i meant true, to the previous post, about my building 'associates' with dave and eben. my opinion is that walt didn't make these cams. no way.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 12:13pm PT
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Rob, again, my interactions with the seller, and his own career as an artisan machinist leaves me zero reason to doubt his post above. If Walt were standing there when it was said and didn't say anything, how would you interpret things? I don't have any idea what the reality behind that particular exchange might have been, but I get no sense whatsoever the the seller is being anything but forthright and honest about his experience in the matter.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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Ditto
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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i was making these small cams around '83 - '85. there were no small cams of this design prior to that, so when was walt in school? these cams are clearly knock-offs. i do recall seeing cams like these back then that were based on our designs that were being mass produced by someone in LA.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Rob, I reckon you're the man to start the Small Cam Historical Thread. Very interesting stuff.
For reference, I recall 1980 being the first year you could buy Jardine's Freinds in the US. I bought my first set (full sizes only #1-3) mail order from the UK. It was when I was a student at Dartmouth, so it would have been 1979 or early 1980.
Now that you mention it, I do remember yours --Rob Orovitz--being the first well made small cams available. 1983 sounds like the year. Before that there weren't really any decent small cams available for purchase (in Camp 4), though there were a few homemade ones out there. Your's were very expensive, if I remember right! I couldn't afford it, though I wanted one badly!
I actually made a small cam myself in college, must have been around 1981 at Stanford. I still have the blueprints, but the unit itself didn't work that well, as I messed up the placement of the trigger wires on the cam. I gave it away at some point.
Looking through my old notes, I came across this letter and sketch of a logarithmic spiral from Walt. Here it is, front and back:
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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^^^^^
hahahaha! "take a bath", logarithmic spirals and an onsite free solo attempt all in the same letter. Fuk! He was the man!
Side note: Hey Rob! good seeing you in the Gorge a while back. If you ever come down to Josh, you gots to look me up. I can always use a tight rope from above!
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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when i have some time i'll see if i can put something together, not so sure i want to loose my lurker status here though. have to dig through some stuff to see if i can find any of the sketches or patterns we used. thanks for posting the note, lost on an onsite solo of fantasia??--good times!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 20, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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Nice archival stuff in there Deuce!
So as to somewhat retain Rob's lurker status, we'll use this as the unofficial small cam thread for now...
(apologies for drawing you into this Rob, but we love fidgeting over the olden days and your input is much appreciated)
I have an e-mail into Dave Ingersoll, it may not be accurate; over the weekend I'll get his number and try phoning him.
Super nice guy and really misses Walt & loves the stories so I'm pretty sure he'll be happy to accommodate.
Tony Yaniro was on to this very early and I don't remember exactly the year/date, but with a HACKSAW,
He hand cut some steel units and showed them to us with pride way back when!
'Dude was persistent...
HB cams, with slender steel stems:
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Mar 20, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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4Deuce: Nice blueprints.
I have to correct something though. Friends were available in the U.S. before 1980 - I know I was using them in 1979 and never ordered anything from overseas... We could buy them at Rock and Snow in the Gunks, and also, I believe, in places like EMS. I still have, and use some of those friends.
In fact, in the summer of 1979 my party had 2 full sets up to 4" to use in aid climbing on Mt. Thor, Baffin Is. (The big ones had not yet reached the market, but we got them special directly from the company.) This was one of the earliest such uses in wide, long cracks.
I also know that custom made small sized friends, and maybe TCUs hit the Gunks by no later than summer of 1983 - I bought some from Steve and Corey Rich, who were making them, and possibly visiting western climbers who were also making and selling them.
Steve Amter
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 20, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Friends were available around the beginning of 1978, more or less. I recall they were first available in Britain.
They were slow to catch on; it took some time for climbers to understand what Friends could do.
Firstly, they were available in Britain before the US, and they were of less use in the UK as the cracks are seldom so straight-sided as in the US, so existing nuts worked quite well. They seemed to be very much a luxury item, rather than essential.
Secondly, they were expensive,
And thirdly, there had already been a few camming designs produced, and none had worked, so this led to more reluctance to fork out real money for what might have been just the latest gimmick.
Fourthly, there was no modern advertising campaign; it was a few tiny ads in the mags, and word of mouth.
Here's some more info about the early history:
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/AboutUs/AboutUs1/History1/
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