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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Cosmic, "HUGS!" I always have known that! Why do you think I keep calling you, wanting you around?! You do know that most of my favorite climbing days have been because of you!
:)AF
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KlimbIn
climber
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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Anastasia I don't know what you do.
I'm a single male and can't think of a better girlfriend than a driven climber. That said I don't hit on the women I climb with. I value the climbing partnership more than that. Good partners are hard to come by. But if we get along, and I see future relationship possibilities (and she has most of her teeth :-), yes I might do some obvious flirting.
But if showing a woman a new area for the first time, I don't take it as a come on. They're climbers who want to climb. I don't know how you separate the as#@&%es from the decent guys (don't they teach that in female class).
On a similar note if the woman tells me within the first 10 minutes that she has a BF/Husband/not here for a romp. I find it disrespectful and take offense. I'm just here for the climbing too.
Good luck.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Hahah..JM,
Those small hands make it look huge, plus the whole left handed thing.
Prod.
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
Littleton
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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I've gotten a few e-mails on this so let me clarify my point. If someone hits on me, I am flattered regardless of who you are. It doesn't happen to me very often so when it does, I do apprecate it. When I do not reciprocate the affection and that partner proceeds to ditch me for THAT REASON, that is where my frustration comes from. I'm not saying that it is wrong to be attracted to your partner either. I have been guilty of that BUT I was adult enough to know that the foundation of our relationship was climbing and if nothng else came from it, that was fine with me. He is and was a great partner. So I hope I didn't piss anyone off. I'm a little sore from a very recent situation that blindsided me and feel like an idiot for thinking that we were good partners because he really enjoyed climbing with me. :-( I have some fantastic male partner that I wouldn't trade for anything.
Edit. . .Anastasia. . with regard to your situation, I completely agree with Pud, especially the part about missing out on some great parters if you limit yourself to just women.
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quartziteflight
climber
Who knows?
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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"It appears to me that EVERY WOMEN that has all her teeth, is healthy enough to hike and does not weight in at 200 pounds is "HOT."
This is not true. There are plenty of female climbers that are not hot. Climber guys generally have low standards...if any at all.
old dudes are horn dogs too...they're just a little more house broken
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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It is all to true that most guys have trouble focusing on the climb at hand when they are thinking about summiting the Twin Peaks.
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
Littleton
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Another by the way: Adventure climbing and mountaineering tends to lead to some pretty intense partnerships. I personally would probably avoid doing those things and spending much time alone with any of this forum's most beloved female climbers because they're awfully cute and I don't need to play with that kind of fire.
I hope most men don't feel that way. Adventure climbing and mountaineering are my preferred styles of climbing and I have a lot of experience with both, at least on a small Colorado scale. I would hate to be over looked because of some pseudo attraction. It is not easy to find female partners for this sort of thing. You do bring up a good point to a woman's conundrum. I respect your opinion and honesty.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Let me get this straight: A few weeks ago you (Anastasia) respond to a thread titled something like, "post a picture of the hottest you've ever looked" with a shot of you in bed showing a fair amount of cleavage. Now you're posting up on the "social complexities of being a female climber," and claiming not to understand why men hit on you? Are you joking? Am I the only one that thinks there's some pounding dissonance here? Or do I just flat-out not understand? Either way it's funny to me and I hope you.
I have a daughter. I'm going to send her to Tami for coaching on how to be a predator and not prey (that is, anything that my wife doesn't cover). If I were into mystic mumbo-jumbo I would say I have a daughter because of the absolute retard I've been with women at many points in my life.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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"If I were into mystic mumbo-jumbo I would say I have a daughter because of the absolute retard I've been with women at many points in my life."
If you had SIX daughters, and no sons, maybe then.... But otherwise, I think the chances of having a daughter are just a bit over that of having a son. I wonder if this is because girls carry both the X and Y chromosome.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Relationships are confusing... When I'm single it gets much worse... You want to date, don't want to be taken as someone too willing. etc. It's a dance, dance, trip, fall, dance, and then without warning wham! There is a misunderstanding and you didn't even try.
Then when you are in a relationship, in the middle of trying to figure out how serious you want it to be, do you want forever, etc. It's a whole "other" game! Yes, I can play defensive, point my finger at the rest of the world and blame them for not understanding, etc... But, maybe I'm doing this wrong... Heck, I'm from another country, I probably am doing this wrong!
So here I am trying to find a social map to figure out what is considered correct behavior and what is specifically incorrect behavior. How does one "prevent" misunderstandings. I still want to make friends, see what is out in the world. Even though I have no desire to hook up. I want friends that challenge my thinking but don't challenge my morals... It's like window shopping at stores that are completely out of one's price range. I am not buying but I can still appreciate... I really don't need a clerk to come out and try to drag me in... I like you, learning from you but it's not shopping time... Am I making sense?
P.S.
Gilwad,
I understand your confusion... That picture really is the hottest I've ever looked! I am proud of it since being able to still be attractive after cancer is one heck of an ego boost. Yup folks, I posted it for my ego... I confess!
Now Cosmic and others can tell you that I don't present myself like that in real life. For one I'm too lazy to work at it and two it's really not me... Yet even if I looked like that everyday, does that make me only good for a man's libido? Do you really want to say that? So does this mean that when a man has his shirt off flexing muscles to his male friends, he's coming on to them? Really?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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It makes total sense. I think you need to quit worrying about it and just climb. and work on your right hook.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 11, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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There will always be misunderstandings. That's the way life goes. You make some errors and get bumped up a bit along the way. Then the next time that situation arises again, you might see it coming and know how to deal. Sometimes that familiar thing comes up and you think you got it - and it has a new twist you didn't expect(sort of like the difference between onsighting, redpointing and TR'ing that old favorite).
Enjoy it. Learn to recognize your parts in the equations and take responsibility for them. But there's still going to be misunderstandings.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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I've had three girl partners that I climbed with a lot. One ended up being a semi-GF, one I liked but never got together with and one was married. I had the most fun and climbed the hardest with the married one.
Climbing is unique in that the partnerships are so close. You drive long distances in the same truck, camp, eat and have intense and rewarding experiences together. Throw in an attractive female (basically all women climbers) and male wiring and the sitch gets complex.
Edit for tips:
Meet at the crag.
Climb with someone of similar ability. If Mr. 5.12 is willing to belay you up 5.9s, then he has an agenda (or is a really nice gay guy)
Don't road trip until it's clear nuthin is going to happen and you are sure everyone is o.k. with that.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Gilwad, There is a certain amount of dissonance. That is what I was saying about people wanting to be thought of as attractive, and wanting to be hit on, but just not too often. It is a balancing act and the really fun part is that the balance point shifts from day to day and even from hour to hour.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Being a woman, climbing with men, getting hit on & not getting hit on, liking it, not liking it, sort of wanting it, being repulsed by it…
Being a guy, climbing with women, wanting to hit on them, not wanting to hit on them, hitting on them anyway….
Think about it: like it or not, climbing is a fairly sustained and intimate interaction and as such easily constitutes or drifts into the dynamic of a date, this is a natural outcome when the sexes are mixed. It is just the nature of the beast and not likely to change anytime soon no matter your chosen tact, whether you’re male or female.
What I find interesting is the evolution of the culture of women in climbing over the last 30 years.
Throughout the 80s and 90s I climbed with a lot of women and for the most part they were all pretty well self-actualized as climbers and fairly comfortable climbing with men.
It seems to me, and possibly (quite likely) in response to the dynamic covered in the OP, as more women have gotten into climbing, a noticeable portion of their ranks has grown to be somewhat more divisively feminist than what I used to see.
“Chicks on Crack” … “Chicks with Picks” : these organized groups are pretty cool because they support healthy relationships and nurture endemic styles amongst women, creating safe haven if you will, but they correspondingly support or highlight the cultural divisiveness between men and women.
This thread is going to be a doozy...!!!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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It's the dating game and it's in play each and every time 2 single people get together. If you don't like it or can't figure out the rules, you're each probably just getting what you deserve from someone just like you. Those who deny the game the most are usually the most pitiful, unattractive, and dog-in-heat horny and desperate. If you have 2 people who really indeed have such different interests and intents - they probably won't get together in the first place for climbing or anything else.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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I'm probably the worst person to give advice on this as I went from socially retarded shy dweeb to married, in a very short time period. I have climbed with a few different women, and married one of them. I believe the reason we are so happy after 15 years of marriage is we never put up any pretenses. What you see is what you get with both of us, and we didn't so much date as just enjoyed doing things together.
So my advice for what its worth is just be yourself. Don't play games with people, and don't bother with guys that are into playing games. Don't constrain your mind with the social complexity. Don't make things complicated. Just go out and climb. When you think about the ground, the gear, and falling, you freeze up when climbing. When you think about flirting, et al, relationships freeze up and tension builds. Keep it simple.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Testosterone, in the absence of constraining higher brain functions, is alternately the source of both bold and stupid - climbing with females is a mixed context that challenges men's behavior and integrity in ways they are not necessarily designed for. Consider it a test most will fail and as a way of sorting the gems from the choss (as Crimper can testify to...).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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"With a new partner? To a new area?
What is the person's motivation for going with you? Are you a better climber? A more knowledgeable climber? Do you know the area and share projects?
I only mention this because as a dude, if you want another guy to show you around... good luck. Because climbers often have their own agenda. They want to do the climbs they want to do. A day of free guided touring? Sure it happens once in a while, I'd bet much less often for guys that gals.
So I guess you can do the math on that one."
Also, many of those who might be willing to show you around one-one-one without an ulterior motive won't want to, so as to avoid conflict with their wives or girlfriends.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Mar 11, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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I think a lot of attractive women, climbers or not, assume you're hitting on them when you're not. This bugs the sh!t out of me- get over yourself(not you Ana).
Consequently the female starts giving off a vibe, the dynamic gets funky and the dude bails. From the crag, to the club, to the gym- this scenario plays itself out all the time.
I think a lot of us have more issues than Sports Illustrated.
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