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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ed said,
" . . . I don't really have a god in this fight, but what you said applies to religious people too, right? they should be secure in their own beliefs and leave everyone else alone....
...live and let live...
...and be amazed at the wisdom of separation of church and state."
I'll have to agree with you, and we are obligated by it.
As a science teacher I have to teach science. Science is a tool. A very powerful tool (but it can not answer all questions). It can study those phenomenon that are testable, measurable, and reproducable. Like the "God" of Conceptual Physics, Paul Hewitt says, Science is about Cosmic Order (a very powerful tool for answering What? and How? questions). Religion and faith are about Cosmic Purpose (a way to answer Why? questions). They are both compatible human endeavors but they are different. In science class we teach and learn science. The religion, logic, and philosophy classes are down the hall.
Church and State must be seperate. However, I do respect the faiths of my students. I will never be the kind of teacher that tries to destroy a student's faith. I've known those kinds of teachers and professors in my own life and experience. That just isn't right. Just teach the subject, and let the evidence fall as it may.
Here at ST I can let my hair down and talk freely, and push the boundaries and I certainly do (or at least I hope I can). But I certainly can not do that when I teach in the classroom. But I do teach students to have an open mind and not be afraid of those topics or subjects of discussion that scare, challenge, or they don't believe in. You will never know until you look at all the evidence, and weigh both sides, and then maybe you still will not know. But don't be afraid to try. But certainly, many topics are off topic in the science classroom. Check it out on your own time is my advice.
Live and let live. Live and let LEARN.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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To not believe in God is not the same as to disbelieve in God. A scientist would never believe that there is no God because lack of proof does not prove non-existence. A person who believes there is no God is as arrogant as the one who believes that there is.
There might be, and there might not be, a God. I wonder if I'll ever know for sure.
Dave
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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RS,
Yep, said like a true agnostic.
That is ok, but keep trying, keep looking, keep searching. George Harrison said something like this or to this effect.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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I've always had a problem with that graph. There are a lot more pirates out there than that graph reflects. Better check your sources, but other than that I think your logic is sound. Correlation, causation, blah, blah, blah:
http://xkcd.com/552/
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WBraun
climber
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What????
Only 50 lousy posts so far???? The God threads all kicked yer asses with hundreds of reply's.
What a bunch ah pussies ...... hahahaha
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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quality over quantity
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WBraun
climber
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You're dreaming.
Even a donkey could do better than the incoherent rambling in this thread.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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[Massive Post Warning -- think PgDn key]
The word “agnostic” comes from the classical period Greek ‘a – gnosis’
Now 'gnosis' was the classical period Greek word for “that which is knowable.” More to the point, as Thomas Aquinas wrote, “that you can touch.” And the 'a-' part simply means ‘without’, as in a-moral.
So, in short, agnosis means that which you cannot actually know; that which you cannot actually touch. And that is the very definition of the realm of faith.
(fwiw, Thomas Aquinas also wrote “Lord, give me chastity – but not just yet.” amen)
I ended up $30k in debt just to learn this stuff. dhope!
~~~
So, if you understand the word ‘agnostic,’ you recognize that every soul ever born is by definition ‘agnostic’. For faith is the realm of that which cannot be known, or ‘touched’.
‘agnostic’ means, at root “I’dunno.” Hell, of course you’dunno. If it was knowable, ‘touchable’, there would be just one faith. If the sky suddenly opens up and some massive omnipotent being says to all of us all at once “So listen, this is who I am, this is why I created you, and this is what I expect of you.” Then, well, the whole idea of faith would immediately become obsolete. And there would be just one religion – and all in a hurry.
~~~
In the meantime, we all make our best guess – based on our experience and the wisdom of the very best of those who preceded us (and made it into print -- hence mostly guys).
~~~
Now this is not to say that the faith of so many of my dearest friends and loved ones is as not as immediate and powerful to them as their next breath. For it is. Given their experiences and their understanding of existence, it is as real to them as oxygen. And I say fine.
~~~
Me, I am at present an atheist. For that is what my personal experience and comprehension of the chaos around me has convinced me, today, is true. Now tomorrow that might all change. And fine by me. I’d much rather believe that after I fall off of something because I didn’t get the knot right and crater that I will be surrounded by all of those I have ever loved in a place of endless bliss. I, for one, am rooting for the beliefs of all the North Sea Catholics of my clan. I hope they are right. Who wouldn’t want that? My current understanding is that I get absolute and complete extinction, and in a heartbeat. Though if nothing else, even that that is better than the front row seat in hell the nuns of my youth assured me was my fate.
~~~
But here’s my point (I’ve actually had one all along, I just got lost in digressions, as always): atheism is a form of faith. Our language, european languages in general, just don’t seem to allow for this. arghhh.
There is absolutely no tangible evidence I can point to prove my best read to date is right. Nor is there any tangible evidence that my many theist friends and loved ones can point to to demonstrate their best guess is right.
~~~
And isn’t that the point of all this? Atheism is as much a form of faith as theism is. For faith is the realm of the ultimately unknowable (in this world), what Thomas Aquinas called the ‘untouchable’. No?
What bothers me is that my culture, and its language, seems to have lost track of this. When I suggest to someone I trust, quietly, that atheism is also a form of faith, things generally explode. Why?
~~~
Me, I walk a wide and respectful circle around any faith (save for the few that believe that ripping the hearts out of children is ‘religion’. But as there are few if any true Toltecs still among us, this is rarely an issue). This is why you’ll never see my moniker among the threads that the evangelical trolls rip open.
~~~
Atheism is a form of faith. And as such it deserves the respect of any other faith. For faith is, at root, simply our best guess given what we can comprehend at the moment. And we can only comprehend so much. And yet that drive to guess, to undertand, perhaps more than anything is what defines us as human.
I often (usually at an airport waiting for yet another delayed flight) sit and think about this. I think about all of the rage the Xtians (or whatever) rip at my tribe. Some among them have told me that if I don’t believe in their god, I must think that I’m god. Huh? Sheesh, I’ve clotheslined my own fool self so many times that cannot begin to believe that I am god. If I believed that, I’d be a ‘michael-ist” -- not an atheist.
I’ve also been told so many times that if I am not an X(whatever)tian than I cannot possibly have any morality. Well, I am quite capable of being a scumbag. But mostly I try for something better. The Irish Catholics of youth have confession (now “the Sacrament of Reconciliation). My faith doesn’t have that. No, if I blow it, my wretchedness echoes on forever in time. The best I can hope for is that perhaps at the end I have done more good than bad, that the good echoes at tad more loudly than the bad. Not likely, but even we atheists can hope.
~~~
It amazes my X(et al)tian peers -- that I see Jesus, and Siddhartha Gotama, and Mohammed (et all…) as high among my spiritual superheroes. I read of them, almost daily, and try to do like they did. I mostly fail – but I do try.
The other day as I walked to (what is this month) work I passed by a guy with a megaphone. His faith had apparently convinced him to go out and ‘fix’ my other faith. So he roars at me (through his megaphone) “what is your favorite quote from the Gospels!
And I turned to him and said “John 11:35 – “Jesus wept.” Then he just stared at me funny and soon aimed his megaphone at someone else.
I do love that magnificent quote. Given all that he knew, or may have known (I’m no Christian theologist) -- imagine that. He learns that his buddy has died. And he wept. How very human. How magnificent.
~~~
So I’m thinking, if you kids really need to beat up on somebody – pick on the agnostics. For those whose best answer to the most profound and human question any of us has to grapple with is “Um, I Dunno…” -- have, to my small eye, missed the point.
But then, I called myself an agnostic BITD. I can almost kina see their point. For we are all agnostics. But eventually we have to actually choose something -- and then take responsibility to live up to what that decision demands.
~~~
Good grief, I have been getting oh so preachy of late. Maybe I’m pregnant. Is that possible? Oh my...
^,,^
EDIT: it was Augustine of Hippo who wrote (roughly, my trans) "Lord, give me chastity – but not just yet." -- not Thomas Aquinas. i want my $30k back...
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Interesting post Pip. I disagree that atheism is a faith. Sometimes I think it's silly that we have to have these words "atheist," or "agnostic." We don't have words to designate folks that don't believe in witches, or ghosts, or bigfoot, or Flying Spaghetti Monsters, do we? It's not that I believe that there is no god, I simply have no need to ever consider the existence of a god, gods, or whatever.
“Je n’avais pas besoin de cette hypothese-la,” - Pierre-Simon, marquis de Laplace
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Late to the atheist party!!!
...but behold, I bring tidings of great joy:
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You need evidence? Okay, I'll give you evidence. The Miracle of Monte Porco is clear proof. Now give up your unbelieving ways.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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cintune,
I find your second image a lot more persuasive than the first. That, I would argue, is a poor application of Occam's Razor, which is just an axiom anyways, and doesn't really contribute much to the argument. If anyting, you could rely on that diagram to support the proposition that atheists have been sticking their fingers in their ears for two million years and saying "blah, blah, blah."
I think it's totally fine if some people make a choice not to believe in something or another. But given the predominance of religion in human cultures, you're making more of a choice not to believe than those who do.
Having said that, I've never heard a credible explanation of how the legions of intelligent people throughout history--people WAY more intelligent than everyone on this thread--could have been duped by something that you geniuses have been so clever as to see through. We're not talking lightweights here: Newton, Galileo, Geothe, Einstein, Kepler, Jefferson, Edison, etc., etc., etc.
Not to single him out, but khanom says he figured this out when he was 13. If it was so evident to him then, what's the excuse for all these other brainiacs of faith?
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Oh that's easy - indoctrination, persecution, lack of separation of church and state, etc. Best to get 'em while they're young, too.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Is it an oxymoron to say that you believe you're an atheist?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Naw, that's a cop out Willoughby. A nice try, though; just too off the cuff.
I'll admit it is a factor; Galileo's a pretty good example of that. But Darwin, for example, was deeply religious and really conflicted about his findings on evolution because of the possible impact it would have on religious teachings. Did he pretend in his heart to be religious when, at least according to the logic of most of the atheists posting, his research should have led him to disavow the existence of God?
Also, that doesn't explain why so many of our contemporaries are also people of faith, even though they wouldn't receive any flak from being an atheistic or agnostic.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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cintune,
> I've never heard a credible explanation of how the legions of
> intelligent people throughout history--people WAY more
> intelligent than everyone on this thread--could have been
> duped by something that you geniuses have been so clever as
> to see through. We're not talking lightweights here:
> Newton, Galileo, Geothe, Einstein, Kepler, Jefferson, Edison, etc.
[...]
> what's the excuse for all these other brainiacs of faith?
This is yet another hammering I often get from people I like enough to talk to. Some of them tell me that atheism is at root an attempt to demonstrate that one is hipper, more tuned in, (and most importantly) more in-ti-lectual than the rabble of history.
Another cheap shot. I read a lot. I had the gift of an outstanding education – during which I read even more. And even I quick realized that the best and most brilliant of the bipeds were souls of enormous faith. This includes all those you mentioned, above.
This said, no. I didn’t make the most profound and important decision of my life on the basis of “it would make me look in-ti-lectual.” For I’ve read enough to know that other than a few Gauloise smoking frenchies – (Foucoult among them – I met him once – very briefly, just a wing dip and fly by at some pricey university lecture in ‘81. sheesh, an aging self-important turd in Ferrucci leather jeans. I think he wanted to sodomize me, fortunately my french sucked – then and now)
So, anyway, the whole ‘atheism is hip and intellectual’ train of thought is complete crap. I’m not a complete idiot (though I am oh so close).
~~~
Nah, that’s not it either. Each of us think hard about it (even those who haven read all of the fancy stuff – on this Tom Perrotta is _wrong_), and we all make out best guess. In that moment, we bet our lives (and then some).
~~~
And, fwiw, Jefferson (one of my absolute heroes) was a theist – but hardly a Christian in any currently common sense of the word. In his last months he wrote his own translation of the New Testament. It was less than 30 pages long. A great read, much recommended.
Jefferson was, however, a huge fan of Jesus. As am I. A life that like is a life worth attempting -– regardless of whether he was Christ or not. I especially like the moment when he encountered a group of the ‘righteous’ (dudes, of course) about to stone a prostitute (or perhaps a just a teen in the wrong place) to death.
So what did Jesus do? Not only did he mention the “let those among you without sin throw the first stone” part – but, if you read Matthew and Luke, the first thing he did was stand in front of her. Between her and a bunch of guys with rocks in their hands.
Now if you have read Leviticus carefully, you know that the Jewish tradition – Jesus’ tradition, had this ancient rule that it was your religious duty to stone to death, well, any woman who had sex with anyone other than, well, like you. Leviticus goes on to say that not only is it your duty to brain the local hottie with large rocks, but (roughly, my current cheesy hotel room doesn’t have a Gideon’s) ‘if your brother will not stone her, you must stone him too’
Another of the Jesus moments dear to me. He didn’t only talk the talk, he stood up in front of the incoming rocks and challenged Leviticus. In such a moment, I can only hope I’d have the yarbles to do the same.
Though as my pal and poker partner Father Jack (who has all but bankrupted me at cards) once told me, quietly, “Jesus said he was the son of God – how does that work into your theories?”
I’m still working on that...
^,,^
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Well, while true that the Occam's Razor poster is not entirely rigorous, it is funny.
How 'bout this one, then:
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