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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Fattrad, the 'everyone has a foundationand the affluent can add service levels' approach you so disparge is infinitely preferrable to the nightmare that is the current U.S. healthcare systems. It is a total FAIL relative to our nation being both healthy and competitive.
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jstan
climber
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In war time we give names like "gooks" to our opposition so as to marginalize them. By doing so we are led to feel they are less than human and so killing them is acceptable.
This is the politics of division. The Southern strategy apparently lives on.
As a side note, during the Civil War Robert E. Lee always referred to Union forces as "those people." His genius in winning battles with inferior forces was based upon his ability to get into his opponent's head.
Hard to get into someone's head after you have marginalized them.
If we are simply "socialists" the nuances that actually guide us - have all been blotted out.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"When I was insured"
Now that's a strategy - so long as nothing bad happens, then there is no risk pool to spread across...
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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If you are disturbed by the facts that:
*income and wealth inequality continue to rise and are higher in the US than other 1st world contries
*the top 10% of Americans earn 48% of the income
*the top 1/10 of 1% of Americans had more of the share of income than the bottom 50% of Americans
You must be a socialist!
Of course people should be rewarded for their work and be able to earn profits on their wealth but there needs to be balance, if unchecked income inequality would eventually lead to the top 1/10 of 1% owning 99% of everything. Are any of us making $5.6 million a year and want this to happen?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thanks for making that point Rox. The one blessing I have from the catestrophic insurance I carry is getting the negotiated rate (I'm too healthy to otherwise make it to my deductable) Lab tests that the uninsured (Poor but not ultra-poor) pay $180 for were $90 for me. That's backwards in my book.
"My doctor clients tell me they make oh so very little on medicare partients and charge the inured market rates. The insured are paying for medicare or uninsured individuals."
I love the GOP total hypocrisy about medicine..
they say "Government Paid health care is socialism, get your insurance through your work"
however if anyone suggested that employers be required to provide health insurance (at whatever employee co-pay) they would be horrified!
Basically, they are against unions as well (Who do you think forces business to provide health insurance? You think Walmart "wants" to provide a health plan or negotiate with a union?) Big companies are doing a continual dance of reducing, rather than increasing health benefits to employees.
So it's basically "let em eat cake!"
PEace
Karl
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Ghost wrote my exact idea, give the discretion back to the providers.
Ummm, no, that's most definitely not what I wrote.
While it is likely that most doctors, left to their own devices, would give some care to the poor, there are plenty of other players in the health care system that would not. Hospitals, labs, drug companies, etc. And since much of a doctor's work involves bringing those others into the care equation, the poor will get the short end of the stick.
Universal, goverment-sponsored health care, as it is provided in much of what you call the "socialist" world -- i.e. Canada, Western Europe, Japan, etc -- is infinitely preferable to either the no-holds-barred system you appear to advocate, or the mishmash of systems now extant in the US.
Jeff, have you ever spent much time in the countries whose systems you so disparage? This is an honest question, and I'd like an answer. I believe you try to take a rational approach to most things, but your ideas on health care border on the religious, so I wonder if it's mostly because you simply haven't experienced the alternatives.
D
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jstan
climber
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Now jeff:
You don't actually think in those terms. You know you can't win elections if that is the case.
You use the term only because of the effect you think its use will have on others.
"elite"
eh?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Funny how this has turned into an 'eat the rich' thread. All rich people like Jobs and Gates must be crooked and reigned in!!!! They make too much money!!!
You guys will be regretting this in the long run. Look at how history has unfolded with that midset.
You're fine as a 'dirtbag' as long as you can have your Imac, GPS, digital photos, and Avalanche rescue gear...who invented that sh#t and had the guts to pursue it?
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apogee
climber
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Didja hear the doodah that happened b/w Scumbaugh and Michael Steele, GOP chair? Scumbaugh has been touting himself as the 'voice of the GOP' for some time now, and in an interview, Steele was quoted as saying Scumbaugh (paraphrasing) 'is not the voice- I am'- and that Scumbaugh's show is nothing but entertainment and is 'ugly'.
Scumbaugh retorted on his next show, and Steele, realizing he has probably alienated an important (though somewhat marginalized) element of the GOP, apologized to Scumbaugh for his comments.
Steele starts to show some cajones, and quickly bows to the (impressive) weight of Scumbaugh. Pathetic.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Bluering, do you ever consider the process by which corporate officers achieve their rewards....
In many many cases public corporations are ruled as defacto private fiefdoms, with little regard for the interests of the ownership.
Thats the problem..and its not just a problem for the shareholders, its a problem for anyone who interacts with corporations... and thats everybody.
I hope and expect that a reconsideration of how corporations go about their business will be one of the silver linings of the economic downturn.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"I have several clients originally from Canada and England, they relate the same story. Sure, everyone gets a basic level of care, usually very slow and not the latest technology, the wealthy then pay to get extra care. really not much different than our current system. The poor always have access to county health or hospitals and the bills are written off."
Not quite. The statistics clearly show that Canada spends 2 - 3% less of its GDP on health care, and does better than the US on all standard measures. Longevity, infant mortality, and on and on. The level of care available to everyone is quite high, although a few choose to spend even more. There are formal and informal rationing mechanisms, and the system isn't perfect, but there's a lot of choice, and the results speak for themselves.
You'd think the US would leap at something that saved 2 - 3% of GDP, and led to better results. Given that health care in the US is in any case essentially a government enterprise, changing to a single payer system wouldn't be a big step.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Fattrad, so what percentage of working families in this country do you think have adequate basic healthcare coverage with affordable premiums as a percentage of monthly income and that doesn't leave them one serious incident from bankrupcy?"
Fattrad and bluering, how about answering the question - it's pretty basic to the whole discussion.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Neocapitalism as practiced by conservative republicans - privatize gains while socializing losses, same as it ever was (and you guys buy that tired schtick...?)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Bluering, do you ever consider the process by which corporate officers achieve their rewards....
This illustrates my point. I work for a small company under 100 employees with a board of dirctors and a CEO selected by that board. This is a smaller scale, but the same thing...kinda. The smaller companies are initially audited heavily while bigger corps are just harder to audit.
Sure, they need to be audited and held in check, just hard to do with big companies. There is a solution out there that omits Socialism.
My Dad is a former suditor of Bank of America who later became a top exec of Asian Operations. He's an honest man who had to take down some friends embezelling from the company. Not all successful execs are 'rich pigs', just a lot of them.
To say that all execs are crooks is like saying all liberals are communist anti-capitalists....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Healyje....spare us the Communist propaganda!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There are four inputs into any economy.
Raw material
Labor
Capital
And the rarest of them all, the talent to mix the three into a productive recipe,
Entepreneural Talent.
That's why they make the big bucks.
Some just skip the whole process, like Gates, or politicians and just steal it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Well, TGT, you're correct to a point.
With Software Eng things are different. They were for the original commercial eng, Gates, too. Remember Applesoft Software? Gates was writing code for Jobs/W?(what's his face).
Gates started with Apple.
But with soft eng you can acquire more with less....Not necessarily the wave of the future because hardware guys are needed as well as troubleshooters (me) to finish the circle, but easier than the past for sure. Less 'raw material'.
Interesting though. Almost socialist in it's ideal? Hmmmm, that explains software engineers!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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bluering - answer the question.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I got it...hold on...
"Fattrad, so what percentage of working families in this country do you think have adequate basic healthcare coverage with affordable premiums as a percentage of monthly income and that doesn't leave them one serious incident from bankrupcy?"
adequate basic healthcare coverage with affordable premiums as a percentage of monthly income and that doesn't leave them one serious incident from bankrupcy?"
Adequate healthcare = A lot..most
Affordable premiums = almost all (you never see the money, deducted, so it works into your lifestyle)
One serious injury from bankruptcy = That's your problem! It shouldn't be a RIGHT to have govt wipe your ass in an accident. That's what welfare/unemployment (for a limited time) is for. The unfortunate/unpredictable accidents, not slackers.
There's also Chapter 11...
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