Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
|
Anastasia,
re:
> Is it true that being rescued from that high is almost
> impossible? Is it true that anyone trying to rescue
> others from such a mountain is doing it at a very great
> risk to their own lives?
in my experience (long, though rarely extreme), there is no easy answer to that question. i've personally seen successful rescues from way higher and way harder than this one. but i have also seen genuinely caring and studly big kid fail at lower and easier efforts. weather has a whole lot to do with it, as in the high mountains you are often climbing against weather more than anything especially technical.
as for the last part of your question (above), generally no -- in my experience - which is not the sum of all such experiences, of course. given the excellent info in le-bruce's post above, the climbers who went up were already at high camp(s?) and hence likely reasonably well acclimated; they were “guides and porters” and hence likely knew what they were volunteering for. and all did, surely, volunteer.
at 6962m/22,841ft aconcagua is high, but nowhere near the limits of an athletic and experienced climber. there are many dozens of notably higher peaks in the himalaya; and successful rescues have been done on a bunch of them (weather permitting). did i mention weather?
~~~
> Plus, I thought that when you are in high altitude it
> effects your motor skills and the ability to think,
> solve problems... Could the fact that they are over
> 21,000 feet explain their confusion and fear?
um, nah. there are legions of climbers who function quite coherently at such altitudes, and much higher. i've been at such altitudes -- but as i am a demonstrable moron even at sea level, i wouldn't be quick to count myself among them.
my best read (from a great distance and comfy in my cheap hotel room) is that very rough weather both caused the original accident -- and limited what the ad hoc rescue team could do.
i stand behind my point (above), that in the big mountains you are most often duking it out with weather. in the highest of mountains (think 7500m+) altitude can be the major issue.
there are of course some routes on which this is not true, but these are to date the domain of the very biggest of kids. a bunch of our excellent brother Jello's many routes stand as an example; as do those of the handful of others who have to date climbed at such standards _way_ up high.
but anconcagua neither exceptionally high, nor exceptionally hard (on the trade route at the heart of this scenario, as well as the top of the polish glacier were it ended).
all that said, the bad news combo of sh!tty weather, an unexpected quick summit pop (those involved surely had made better plans than to top out in bad weather and the dark), and the simple stress involved in responding to an accident – can all certainly effect the quality of the decisions one makes. and typically not for the better.
fwiw...
^,,^
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
|
I still can't get that video out of my mind....so sad.
It's really starting to piss me off. May he rest in peace....
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
A sad and awful video. You have to give the guys credit for trying, even if they weren't prepared for a rescue.
People walk by injured people in the mountains all the time. I've even seen a guide do it. These guys tried and failed, which is sad, but better then nothing.
People drive by accidents all the time, thinking the professionals will do the work. In the mountains there are few "professionals."
This doesn't look like the work of trained rescuers. Was this a coordinated effort? Was there a team to back these guys up? Who was coming with gear, was there a plan?
I feel for all these guys, not just the victim.
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
|
As for the media being at fault- as a member of the news media I have offer a defense. The father uploaded the video because he wanted publicity.
As for carrying a camera on a rescue. I do it all the time. They are really small these days and there is usually time to grab some footage when there is a few seconds of down time. Rescues are usually not very fast.
even on a recovery a camera is actually an essential piece of gear, as each death is technically a crime scene
Why these guys have a camera and not bivy gear and rescue gear is the question.
What was the plan? go up an get photos, and possibly bury the guy?
I say don't judge them too harshly without more detail.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
|
hey there tom... say, about 7-8 post up there is some news-detail that will help you... from le_bruce....
i just saw it, as well....
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
|
how'd I miss those? still a really sad situation.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
|
le_bruce,
> when does anyone refer to him as an idiot? The only word I'm hearing is 'cuñado'.
I swear, earlier this afternoon the transcript on www.mounteverest.net said "Get up, idiot". According to post here, this was changed to "Get up, cuñado!", and now it reads:
"Get up, cuñado (dude/mate)!" So it sounds like a translation error which they have been fixing on that site.
Sorry, I don't know much Spanish, so I had no simple way to check. I edited my original post to add this.
Thanks very much for your translation of the post on the Chilean andinista forum - that answers most if not all the key questions.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
|
That's harsh. God bless that poor guy and the men who tried to help him. Thanks le_bruce for the clear translation.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
|
http://www.euronews24.org/world/video-of-failed-mountain-rescue-prompts-inquiry/
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina - Prosecutors are investigating a failed attempt to rescue an Argentine climbing guide from a blinding snowstorm on the highest peak in the Americas after a video of the rescue expedition aired on national television in Argentina.
The nearly three-minute video shows 31-year-old Federico Campanini struggling on his hands and knees as he was tugged forward on a rope by five rescuers, while another filmed. As violent winds whipped snow across the rocky terrain, Campanini collapsed, and police said he died four hours later with a rescue member by his side.
The dramatic footage, aired repeatedly on television, has provoked public concern that rescuers could have done more on Aconcagua mountain, where more than 4,600 climbers attempted to summit last year. Two policemen and four volunteers on the rescue team were not speaking to the news media on Wednesday.
The guide's parents, Carlos and Monica Campanini, cited the video as proof that the six-member rescue crew allowed their son to die.
Carlos Campanini said the video, which was anonymously delivered to his lawyer a week ago, was excruciating to watch and he doesn't want another climber to be treated the same way.
The people who were around him, let him down, Carlos Campanini told The Associated Press. My son did everything he could to save himself. You could see his desperation to save his life because he had his plans, his ideals, his family and his wife.
But Antonio Ibaceta, who coordinated the operations from base camp for the Mendoza police force, said people viewing the video at home cannot fathom the conditions on the highest peak outside of Asia.
The public has no right to condemn in this way, when what they did was truly an act of solidarity since the men volunteered for the rescue mission, Ibaceta said.
While most experienced climbers take three to four days to scale the 22,841-foot Aconcagua, the rescue crew surged to the top in one day and were suffering severe fatigue in the oxygen-deprived air and minus-58 degree temperatures, Ibaceta said. The video shows crew members stumbling and repeatedly saying how exhausted they are.
He said crews often film rescue efforts to improve subsequent operations and to use as legal evidence in the event of a death.
The prosecutor's office for Mendoza province confirmed it was investigating the rescue attempt and received a copy of the video, but declined to discuss further details.
Environmental Secretary Guillermo Carmona, who oversees Aconcagua park and its employees, emphasized the difficulty of the rescue.
What can be seen in the video is that the rescue squad is trying to do its best amid the existing conditions to evacuate Federico Campanini, Carmona said.
Campanini already was in dire condition when rescuers arrived.
On Jan. 7, he and the four Italian climbers were caught in an afternoon snow storm and strayed from their route. An avalanche then killed an Italian woman and injured Campanini before help arrived to lead the hypothermic survivors down the mountain.
Carmona said the rescue team was in close contact by radio with a public prosecutor whose statements also will be part of the investigation.
Julio Suarez, police spokesman in Mendoza province, expressed concern that the investigation could discourage volunteers from joining future rescue efforts.
They're going to say 'No, because someone can take me to court,' Suarez said.He said that in order to be free from charges of abandonment, every member of the rescue team has to be contributing to the best of his or her ability.That raises questions about whether the person filming the video could have been helping instead. But Mario Gonzalez, founder of the Argentine Association of Mountain Guides, said the video was made in good faith.They didn't shoot the video to incriminate themselves as having abandoned someone, Gonzalez said. I think they filmed it to crudely illustrate the severity of the situation ... for the rescue team, and the grave state of the victim.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 12:09am PT
|
Blah blah blah. Face it - he died because he was on the mountain with a clusterf*#k of incompetent pussies.
|
|
Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 12:35am PT
|
Yeah, the heartless bastards! One of them should have sacked up, hoisted the victim over their shoulder and parasailed off the mountain. I'm guessing just about anyone here could have done it.
|
|
Anastasia
climber
Not here
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 12:39am PT
|
Pip the Dog,
Thanks for the clarification. This whole things scares me silly... I know how it feels to watch someone die and I really don't like it. I feel for everyone involved.
AF
|
|
enjoimx
Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 01:07am PT
|
To the OP
How is this "unacceptable" as you say?
Rescue is a privelage, and rescue is not an exact science. While there may be "codes" that you speak of, certain situations may dictate an alteration from these codes, and not everyone can be saved.
Yes, climbing is risky. Do it at your own risk.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 02:10am PT
|
"Is it true that being rescued from that high is almost impossible?"
In '85 when I went down there I was informed that usually 'you were on your own' and that rescue was next to none. I also recall at least one corpse on the Polish Glacier Route that substantiated that comment.
 ec
|
|
bob
climber
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 08:36am PT
|
Man that is a rough one. Seems they were doing all they could. People who don't mountaineer don't have a clue what its like up in those conditions. Now, from a climbers side of things, (and this is not directed to the climbers in the video) I don't understand how people can go climb mountains with the thought of rescue as even an option. I'm not saying the climbers in the video were at all. With all the blame from family and or friends it seems the mindset of using the idea of a rescue to lend confidence in doing something very dangerous is counterproductive and shows incompetence in a climber/climbers.
Back to the topic of the rescue attempt: If a family member blames all the others, did the deceased climber set that ideal to the parents by telling them rescue is always an option, fostering a false sense of safety for the parents? So many people expect that they will be rescued, but I doubt a guide would feel that that option is always available. Ugh.
Horrible situation. Friggen horrible.
Rambling.... forgive me.
Bob j.
|
|
Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 10:22am PT
|
I think Werner said it best.
He frigging knows what it means to rescue people. He's probably rescued hundreds.
It's easy to sit here on our computers and criticize the efforts of others.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 10:59am PT
|
Werner doesn't really know anything, he just spouts a bunch of bullsh'it here masquerading as knowledge.
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 11:03am PT
|
I'm curious what the plan was.
It sounds like they were prepared for a body and found a live person? If they were after a body, why did so many people go up?
It happens from time to time. The first team out of the base gets to the victim fast, but carrying little gear, can do very little.
This isn't always a bad thing, as they can assess the situation so the next team knows what's going on and the other teams/helo can bring the right gear.
This was a bad situation. How do you rescue someone up that high in those conditions?
With the right gear, (a litter to drag the guy ropes, a few pulleys, prussiks and something to anchor to) do you pull the guy up to the summit.
Lower the guy down the Polish route?
Hunker down and wait for the chopper- the guy was stable enough crawl, why not sit?
I don't know the capability of helos up there. I don't really see a good way.
In a perfect world, what could be done?
Is it possible? I would say yes, depending on how long the guy could last, but it would have taken a perfect world, which we don't always have.
Shitty situation no matter which way you slice it. I hope the lawyers get nowhere.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 11:04am PT
|
Nobody in that video seems to know what the f*#k is going on or what that f*#k to do. If you are going to climb one of the highest mounains in the world, you should have a f*#king clue, even if you are a guided client. Just as Krakauer basically noted in 96, the blame runs deep - hubris.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!