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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Coz,
Yes I did read it but maybe I didn't understand fully. Did they, at one point, have fixed ropes from Gray ledges to the ground? That does seem a bit much.
How hard is the climbing up to Mammoth on the Shaft? No one would ever complain about a "free" ascent of the Salathe or Freerider for fixing to Mammoth and then rapping off for a day or two.
I can see your desire for adventure and challenge but I can also see the desire for a free ascent of El Cap. For me, and you, there is a line where the adventure and challenge dies. I suspect the line varies from route to route and obviously person to person. The IDEAL, of course, it seems without doubt, is to walk up to the base and climb to the top, with no excessive foreknowledge (you guys DID have a topo of the Muir and, just like Max and I did, no doubt parsed it for all the information it was worth) without falling or hanging on gear.
Ah, well, we are only human. Evolving, I hope.
Cheers
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nice.
……………………
I should clarify:
My links to the phrase finder tool about such things as “let the chips fall where they may” and “a chip on the shoulder” aren’t really meant to be incendiary as regards this thread.
Although to a certain degree, they do apply, hehe.
Wandering thread drift really.
Survival/Bruce Birchell just got me thinking about it.
Here’s the last one I’ll cloggg pipes with, Lisa just got me onto it:
“put up your dukes”
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/put-up-your-dukes.html
[It is suggested to be of Romany origin. This belief comes from the Romany word dookin, meaning fortune telling or palmistry. H. Brandon, the editor of Poverty, mendicity and crime... To which is added a dictionary of the flash or cant language, 1839, lists this meaning in the book's glossary:
"Dookin - fortune telling."
The palmistry association does link dooking with hands, but, that aside, the evidence to support the Romany source isn't very strong.]
[What we do know is that put up your dukes was known by 1874 - the first record of it that I can find in print is in John C. Hotten's 1874 edition of A dictionary of modern slang, cant, and vulgar words:
"Dooks, or dukes, the hands, originally modification of the rhyming slang 'Duke of Yorks,' forks = fingers, hands... The word is in very common use among low folk. 'Put up your dooks' is a kind of invitation to fight."]
I especially like this one:
[Samuel E. Chamberlain's My Confession, circa 1859, also makes the link between dukes and hands/fists.
"I landed a stinger on his "potatoe trap" with my left "duke," drawing the "Claret" and "sending him to grass."]
And as it happens the three phrases did sequence nicely.
........................end of silly thread drift.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Coz, Kid, your ascent and the style that you employed, is what it's all about, to me, and really, why I climb at all.
There have been other things done, up there, that are amazing, in their own idiom. Different tasks, though.
That other controversy? i've taken my Bosch up more than one pitch before, too. I also use higher tech ropes, these days, than the goldlines I learned climbing, on.
That bust, was a career move by someone who, though he has good qualities expressed in any number of other situations, some of which I have shared in, will always be remembered by some of us, as the one who attempted the most drunken ascent of Deto's Durrance route.
Accusers are people too.
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WBraun
climber
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Just see ....
They climbed that big rock with their bare hands ....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Tommy was working the route with lines to Grey ledges. Don't know anything about their final push.
Funny thing, Triple Direct has not had a free ascent although every inch of it has goine free.
PEace
Karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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”Just see ....
They climbed that big rock with their bare hands ....”
That’s brilliant!
All this talk about style, past & present attitudes……
In the end that is just subtext; it matters and it is interesting, but it’s not the core of why we spend time on the forum.
Scott Cosgrove:
You and Kurt have the tiger by the tail here:
A thread is opened on a terrific adventure: a historic ground-up bid at free climbing the Muir Wall.
Nearly everyone on this forum is a climber and uniquely interested in this stuff.
Yet few of us have even attempted such a thing.
We want know what it was like being up there; what kind of unique obstacles you were presented and how you overcame them.
We want to hear about changes inside you that happened only in that place under those circumstances, due to any one of the many constraints: stylistic, physical, teamwork-wise, time span .... whatever.
Maybe just pick one pitch, one afternoon, one particularly weird or thrilling state of mind and tell us about it!
We'll follow up with more neat Hudon-like questions about the basic gig of livin' large.
Take us there, share with us just a glimpse of that thing we all really dig.............
Climbing those big rocks with bare hands.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Here here. I dig your thread drift Roy.
And tales of climbing big rocks with bare hands too!
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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More etymology, Tarbuster! Maybe you could start a "climbing etymology" thread...
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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wow, i did not think i would stir up an ethics issue here. but then again, this is rock climbing.
I respect all that has been done before and after my day in the sun. What Tommy and the rest of this generation is doing on el cap is amazing and something i could not have imagined during those 3 months we worked this project. Mark and Max were an inspiration for my climbing and Todd and Paul's ascent made free climbing on el cap possible for me to attempt.
what i wanted to do was show the first ascentionist the respect by attempting this route in a similar style. TM and Royal set the standard that we all hoped to follow. So it didn not make any sense to me to do the route on aid first and see what could go free. Again it's really simple- start @ the bottom and work your way to the top. Fix lines to work the route to a certain high point and then pull the cords and send. And have a good time and haul lots of good food and other treats to make it a "plush adventure"
Someone asked: why not hand drill and how many bolts and where?
I had just finished El Sendero Luminoso in the Potrero Chico (15 pitches, all sport ground up 5.13-) and this is the mode that i had been in since 1990. Drilling quality bolts on quality routes. Mostly ground up and some rappell (rifle, clear creek, shelf road and the potrero were my canvas)!
Scott and i felt all the belay bolts we encountered were sh#t, so naturally we wanted to replace every station. We never added a single bolt to the AID line of the Muir. We added a few lead bolts to our variations.
why not hand drill? Been there done that for 8 years. When the best tool for the job is in your van you are going to use it. We were not the FIRST nor the LAST to power drill on el cap! This does not make it right but it is reality.
I wanted adventure and that is what i got. I also got a lot of fun out of it, some bad but most of it good. I was climbing with two old friends on a route that i started looking at in 1988. We did not know when or where we would get shut down and that was what kept it so exciting every day! I have pushed the sport climbing thing for years and there is not as much joy in an FA when you have worked it to death to send it (Slice of Life).
so my goal was to find adventure and mystery again and that is what we got plus and $2000 bill to go with it!
so enjoy the post, the pictures and the stories and let's keep this about adventure and the mystery of FA's!!!
another fav photo:
Greg and Scott chilling on chickenhead after a sic traverse got us there and an epic haul session for all our crap!
KS
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 11:29am PT
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My bad_ this photo is the bivvy ledge before we traversed across to chickenhead.
This next pitch was the most amazing pitch on the route for me. Unclimbed ground across the Shield head wall. When i did the shield in 1986 with Rick Lovelace i was scared silly on the head wall and now it was time to free climb across it! I will always remember the feeling of anxiety and then elation on this traverse!
KS
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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here is the start of pitch 27- the 5.12 traverse across the shield head wall.
ks
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That traverse looks sick. I have to imagine that some of the scariest or problematic pitches don't always fetch the highest ratings. Seems like lots of the major features on El Cap free routes are connected by thin 5.12 slab that's got to be frustrating for some cause, like a cat, you just can't hang on by brute force.
PEace
Karl
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Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
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That's some good stuff, there, Kid & coz.
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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OS free climbing across the Shield headwall... makes my sphincter twitch just thinking about it... Great stuff, cool pic.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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You know, I don't really want to get into an ethics debate, but I'm having a hard time with Coz taking points off of Tommy's ascent for fixing to Gray Ledges and then the Kid saying "during those 3 months we worked this project".
So, is this correct? In your last push, you had worked the route to a certain level (for almost 3 months) but you started from the ground, hauling all your gear, food and water, free climbing along the way, at some point you started climbing new ground, continued on in fine style, got to Chickenhead ledge, had to aid a few moves and then climbed to the top.
3 months working the project? I don't see much difference between fixing ropes to the ground from Gray Ledges and spending three months working the pitches up to there. I know that if I worked something for three months, I'd have it pretty wired and would be able to climb it pretty effortlessly.
Is that right? Maybe reading the article would be helpful although I'm sure I don't have it.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Wow, I walked away for a few days and this thread exploded--Hudon weighed in, Roy got all etymological, and the Kid is making sphincters twitch. Full Value!
Coz, I doubt you remember me but I repaired the corners on your big green (?) double ledge just after or before a work gig with some Navy Seals. You and Dicker were over at the Animal Nickname guy's place in Paradise and it was close to 100 in the shade. It was nice hearing about your adventures.
So, how does the Sjong/Miller route differ from The Shaft? I wish Tim Kemple'd post up or link up his photos. They're insane.
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Mimi
climber
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Yes guys, this is rich stuff. How refreshing to get the story firsthand with full honesty. It will be a trip when the next party does it like you suggested, Coz. The on-sight flash.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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I totally see your point about the rapping in from the top thing. That's really your big sticking point. It would have been totally the balls to have climbed from the ground, knowing that you have the weight of one of the last pitches being the crux on your mind, never having seen it before, get there, and crank it. Yeah, I can see your point. Good on you, man!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Kurt,
incredible photo of the traverse! That thing you have your right hand on looks pretty positive:-)
Bruce
ps - though it seems like the generations debate happens all too often, I think it is still worth having, from time to time, as it gives us all a chance to think about why we climb and the style we are using.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Great effort and a fine outcome. Good stuff!
As bhilden said, it is still worth having the debate from time to time. We have to try and form our own game, even with unwritten rules.
It is interesting to me that coz can come down so HARD on Robinson and Jones for rap bolting with a hand drill (legal),
but not be willing to discuss having a powerdrill on El Cap, (illegal) I'm not saying either is better than the other, just that if you want to slam dance one of them, you have to entertain some incoming about the other.
Again, I have great respect for all you guys.
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