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Murf
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
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> I wish more people were for pulling unnecessary bolts and not for
> adding bolts wherever they get scared. I think the RA rap route
> needs to go.
BW
I'd say I generally feel more like you than not. However, others have convinced me of the necessity of things like the RA rap.
Everyone knows that climbing has exploded in popularity. Given the state of climbing as it exists today, there is a convincing argument that enables the creation/modification of gumby routes. Things that the masses can get up and down w/o putting themselves and everyone else in a jam. Not only do you want to make it more accessible so the epic factor comes down, but you want the route/routes to handle a good amount of traffic ( although I don't believe the RA raps are that great of an example of this seond point ).
Now I know what you are going to say.... F' em if they can't freaking get up and down RA w/o the rap, and if the route is too crowded they can go somewhere else just as classic. I have to say, that down deep I agree with you.
But given the state of the climbing today, what would be the quantitative results of removing the RA raps? How many gulley rescues/deaths/F up's will YOSAR/the NPS deal with before putting up "official raps"? What will happend first, those unprepared for such a reality stop going up RA or the raps being put back in?
Other benefits of the arguement is that you can "sacrifice" some routes/raps to keep most others generally clear. Does just reading it make you a little sick? It does me.
Let me restate that while I've been personally convinced that this type of thing is almost required, it doesn't make me very happy. If climbing could go the way of the latter day jogging/jazzercise/whatever craze, these types of compromises wouldn't be necessary. Also, this doesn't mean that I'm for retrobolting the actual routes. This type of thing is more applicable to descents and anchors. Another thing is when it becomes widespread, like from Crimson Chrysalis to Ginger Cracks, then it needs to be nipped in the bud.
Murf
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 31, 2005 - 01:03pm PT
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What is wrong with being safe on the pitch and having a sketchy rap? Pointless? perhaps, but climbing itself is pointless. You want to be safe? Go play tiddlywinks. But be sure you wear your goggles
no offense pal, but you come off as bright as don quijote when you advocate unsafe raps. tell it to the orphaned kids of some mother that craters while being lowered off...
trees may die or loosen
rock may decay or erode
pin placements may deteriorate
old bolts go bad
i'd agree that all bolting in yosemite should always be a last resort, an option that should be avoided whenever possible, but if the FA had every expectation of returning to the ground alive, and w/out spectacular or heroic effort, then how does the valley itself become diminished if everyone who follows is allowed that same expectation? like it or not, THAT is the standard, in yosemite and elsewhere. people's lives matter more than your freakin windmills, period.
consider a hypothetical where the FA rapped off of a single pin and a marginal shallow nut, because no other options are present. over 20 years of use, the nut placement becomes flared to the point of uselessness, and the pin placement loosens and is replaced a few times, until the placement is junk. your ethic would demand that people keep hammering out the pin placement? should someone drill it out? cement it in? or what if the pin cannot be removed w/out destroying the placement, and the pin itself ages and is obviously not reliable?
not that every climb needs to have bomber bolted anchors, but every climb does need to have a reasonable exit, whether it's walking off the top or rapping off of something that is trustworthy.
it would seem more reasonable (to me) to define a narrow scope of acceptable scenarios, rather than pretend they simply do not ever arise. the slippery slope is a scary thing, and you do have a point, but i am not about to die for it.
and about the ASCA bolts- they seem to keep pretty good records of where those bolts & hangers go. if you have specific concerns, why don't you just ask. i have heard of ASCA bolt hangers being scavenged by some.
EDIT
as for murf's post about the RA raps, i too think that you need to consider the valid trade offs that are in play in that and similar situations. valid concerns over additional government imposed regulations aside, how much impact would the area at the rim see if there were no raps? the walk off itself already changes yearly just due to the traffic it gets as it is. that area in the NDG is highly unstable and it seems unlikely that a quality trail could ever get built or be maintained, and if it were it would be much more offensive (to me) than a dozen bolts no one can see from anywhere. it's easy to forget that yosemite is not just about the rock, "the resource", as the NPS likes to say, experiences a wide range of pressures, and while i would rather walk off than rap, i don't want to see even greater impacts to the unique and spectacular landscape, not just in the NDG area but everywhere in the valley.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 01:13pm PT
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Werner,
I would rather see a full retreat than an added bolt; however, I see no problem with an emergency bolt placed to save a life (as YOSAR often has to do). But they should be chopped later.
"Why do we want to be safe?"
I don't know. Life itself is such a dangerous prospect; you could be killed crossing the street or die from a bug bite. As far as safety in climbing, there is far more safety in knowledge and common sense than in massive bolts. Look at the lamentable accident at Lazy Bum the other day. The bolts there did nothing to keep that guy safe. It is only by the grace of God that he is even alive.
"Why do we want to preserve our life?"
We're drifting off topic, but sgsin, I don't know. The Bible says, (paraphrased) 'He that would keep his life shall lose it, but he that would give his life for God's sake will keep it.'
"Why not eliminate traffic signals"
I don't know. Since they don't affect climbing and I don't really take a hard line on driving ethics, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me.
"Are we a separate entity?"
Yes. Each person is a unique creation of God, and answerable individually for his own actions. Each must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
"Are we as DMT says...?"
Sadly, human nature is very like that. And will continue to be. It is the result of sin, from which salvation can only be gotten by calling on Jesus Christ for forgiveness.
I must rescue my daughter from The Stairs and get some work done. Flame away, all of you, and I will log on again this evening.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 31, 2005 - 01:14pm PT
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Ben, I totally support you and your message.
Keep the faith.
Speak the word.
Ben, you have a daughter now???
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 31, 2005 - 01:33pm PT
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Everyone knows that climbing has exploded in popularity. Given the state of climbing as it exists today, there is a convincing argument that enables the creation/modification of gumby routes. Things that the masses can get up and down w/o putting themselves and everyone else in a jam. Not only do you want to make it more accessible so the epic factor comes down, but you want the route/routes to handle a good amount of traffic ( although I don't believe the RA raps are that great of an example of this seond point ).
Sounds like you have just described an indoor climbing gym. Great, just keep that crap inside!!!
Some of those ASCA hangers that seem to pop up here and there may not have been placed by ASCA members – I know for one, that Mr. Way has been known to recycle those hangers, as well as some guy that I climb with from time to time…
Do we need to take the chopper on a road trip to Red Rocks or what??? Vroom Vroom!!!!
Support your local bolt-chopping agency!
Support the RBCA – Retro Bolt Choppers of America
-American Chopper
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 01:40pm PT
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You will never be able to stop it on your own. It will run its course like the seasons and the sun that rises on its own time. You can argue for eternity but you will still be controlled by the power that we must all submit to.
Birth and death .....
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 31, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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Hexes and nuts? That's new stuff to the valley (at one time). That style replaced the old style, thanks to guys like YC. So time to accept that styles change. Be as open-minded as the old guys who were willing to use nuts and hexes where possible, instead of the pitons of their original style. It's ok to use modern climbing shoes and modern protection. If you want more excitement, climb harder climbs. Or don't. But plenty of climbers will still get the same level of excitement as the legends. And those that will get the same level of excitement know, for sure, they would not think of launching onto those routes, even with topos and beta, using the gear of legends.
If you want to feel superior, go ahead. Skip any of the stuff you object to. You may even find some disgruntled old farts to praise your purity. Have a few with them. Relive the glory days. Feel better about yourself. But you don't have to do that at everyone else's expense.
You might be happier though, to just go climb with some young (at heart) people that are having fun and share it with them. Lead some newbies up some of that hard stuff. If it was hard for them, they will really appreciate your abilities. Hopefully it will be hard for you not to enjoy the pleasure that they got.
Psychiatric help - 5 cents. - Lucy Van Pelt
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Murf
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 01:48pm PT
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>>Everyone knows that climbing has exploded in popularity.
>>Given the state of climbing as it exists today, there is a
>> convincing argument that enables the creation/modification
>> of gumby routes. Things that the masses can get up and down
>> w/o putting themselves and everyone else in a jam. Not only
>> do you want to make it more accessible so the epic factor comes down, but you want the
>>route/routes to handle a good amount of traffic ( although I
>>don't believe the RA raps are that great of an example of this
>>seond point ).
>Sounds like you have just described an indoor gym. Great, just
>keep that crap inside!!!
It would be nice, but shutting Pandora's box might very well be impossible. Those gym climbers are going outside, and the issue of managing the impact is very real. In fact, that is really what this thread is about, isn't it? Only have a few options:
1.) The hard line, chop 'em all
2.) Somewhere in the middle.
3.) Bolt it all
> Do we need to take the chopper on a road trip to Red Rocks or what??? Vroom Vroom!!!!
Minerals, why haven't you chopped the RA raps, seems closer to home for you?
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 02:18pm PT
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Yea Minerals, common man, be the big man you want to be, start chopping and stop talking.
Let’s also hear your so called diatribe….. And your sermon on the mount.
I'm intrested to hear it ........
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 31, 2005 - 02:37pm PT
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Murf wrote:
Those gym climbers are going outside, and the issue of managing the impact is very real. In fact, that is really what this thread is about, isn't it?
In a lot of ways, yes. But there are other issues as well.
Minerals, why haven't you chopped the RA raps, seems closer to home for you?
Because I think that climbing routes and rap routes are two different things and should be looked at differently, contrary to what Ben may believe. I still support Ben but I don’t know if the majority of Yosemite climbers would agree with his rap route views. There are probably a lot that would – I just don’t know. So if I don’t know what the general consensus is, then I won’t act. This subject (RA raps) is something that should be discussed more before something is done. If it appears that it is best for them to stay, then they should stay; if it appears that they should go, then fine, I’ll be happy to help out.
Werner, I’m not the big man – that’s KB.
I’ll post my diatribe when I’m finished with it.
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Murf
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 02:45pm PT
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Because I think that climbing routes and rap routes are two different things and should be looked at differently, contrary to what Ben may believe.
I would just like to point out my own post:
Let me restate that while I've been personally convinced that this type of thing is almost required, it doesn't make me very happy.
Also, this doesn't mean that I'm for retrobolting the actual routes.
So it seems like we agree in theory.
Murf
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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how does one learn to slither, to crawl, etc. through to flying without having some stepping stones that don't involve death and wasting YOSAR time? I support bolted rap stations where natural pro is not readily available. You still have to somehow reach the rap stations.
given that the whole adventure aspect of climbing is a farce to give us something important and dangerous-seeming in our otherwise tame and boring lives, what's the problem with the training wheels of rap stations? if you have a problem with them, don't use them! and if you say "in my day, you had to be a REAL (WO)MAN to do that route" then it looks like you're climbing so everyone else thinks you're cool and badass.
if you did it back in the day, you and the folks whose opinion you probably care about know what you did.
If keeping up that image is important to you, then go do some real remote stuff that requires more commitment for approach and more uncertainty of outcome. Only problem there is that if it's too obscure, not enough people will know about it and you won't get the benefit of people thinking you're a badass.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
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Believe me Mr. Weeni …. Ben does not think he’s badass, although he really is, as I know!
You’re assumptions are just that assumptions!
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 03:00pm PT
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One other thought I just had. What are the ethics of 5.12 climbers doing a 5.9 FA with little/no gear? That means even if it is a '5.9" route you need to basically be a 5.12 climber to merely sh#t your pants rather than die on it.
So is this a selfish waste of a route, bound in antiquated rules of following FA style? Seems that quality 5.9 routes might as well be poured over with concrete as far as folks who climb 5.9 are concerned.
On the other hand, keeping these routes AS IS provides a sort of legend to keep one's dreams alive, a target for "someday when my balls or ovaries grow big enough", a sense that wild places still exist.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 31, 2005 - 03:01pm PT
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So it seems like we agree in theory.
Maybe on a few things but it’s your paragraph that I originally quoted that gets my blood boiling. Sorry, I didn’t mean to attack you, just the ideas in that paragraph.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
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Werner, whether or not anyone on this list is a badass is pretty irrelevant to what I wrote. My focus was on the motivations of people who have problems with rap stations. One likely motivation seems to be caring what other people think about ourselves (seeking external approval). This condition affects cowards, weenies, and badasses alike. If this is the root cause of one's opinion on rap stations, then one's desire for external approval is in conflict with the health and safety of others (I'd err on side of safety since one merely needs to be introspective to address their own need for external approval).
On the other hand, my immediately preceding post about "maintaining a sense of adventure, a notion that wild places still exist" is the root motivation, it's hard to argue with this. This puts "elevation of one's spirit" in conflict with the health and safety of others. As I write this I'm logically cornering myself into supporting bolted rap stations and the gradual dumbing down of everything, sort of an encroachment of civility on the wildness of climbing. And this doesn't really sit well with me on an emotional or spiritual level.
Maybe a way to deal with this is exactly how countries deal with the conflict between urbanization and the desire to preserve wild places..... declare "climbing wilderness zones" where adventure rules and all visitors should know what to expect when they go there. In one way, every climbing area approached by an overnight backpacking trip already meets this criteria. Perhaps since things are so accessible in Yosemite valley, certain formations or routes can be declared as 'wild' and have more strict ethics enforced, while certain long free trade routes continue to be the learning ground and have nice safe bolted rap stations.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Ben isn’t seeking anyone’s approval he’s merely becoming disgusted at what many others are also seeing as a large scale degradation of pure simple clean values.
What those values are can be debated to hell without the original knowledge of that truth.
Who knows and holds that original knowledge?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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There's a difference between debate and tiresome ranting and fingerpointing.
re."I have heard volumes of spray from Mac and Barnes"
re."Chris, if your little fluff boys cannot learn to drill a straight hole, LEAVE US THE OLD MANK"
What exactly are comments like that supposed to accomplish?
I guess Greg is one of the fluff boy he is refering to. It seems that Greg Barnes constantly goes out of his way to listen to complaints and opinions. It appears that he takes them very seriously. Why not treat him with a little fricking respect?
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 03:47pm PT
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David
Maybe he was a little pissed off in the beginning and started his rant in a typical knee jerk reaction?
We'll see later this evening when he returns ....
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 04:24pm PT
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Nice post Dingus!
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