Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 11:52am PT
|
It is generally accepted that about 20%, that's right - one in five people, suffer from mental illness in some form.
It strikes across all demographics. Some can get treated successfully, but stop taking their medication when they "feel ok" and fall back into a symptomatic state. The worst part is that unlike typical illnesses that have symptoms that are unpleasant and cause us to seek treatment, the mentally ill often think they are fine, even when it is plainly obvious even to a casual observer that they are not.
Some are obviously ill. Probably most homeless in this country are mentally ill, otherwise somebody in their family would likely be helping out. Many mentally ill are not homeless. They may even have plenty of financial resources, but little in the way of social support.
Being ill does not mean that society has the right to deprive them of liberty. Not sure where this attribution to Reagan came from, but I am pretty sure the commenter would not like to be pulled out of Camp 4 and shipped of to a mental hospital with no right to be released - even if that were in his best interest from others' perspectives.
|
|
Fresh
Trad climber
meffa, ma
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
|
I let a guy borrow my cellphone because he nagged at me for a few minutes and laid a guilt trip. he talked for about five minutes, with every member of his family, and finally his girlfriend who he told to f*ck off about thirty times in two minutes. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to see my phone again. aside from an annoying five minutes it wasn't such a bad experience but I still tend to shy away from homeless guys now.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
|
"Being ill does not mean that society has the right to deprive them of liberty. Not sure where this attribution to Reagan came from, but I am pretty sure the commenter would not like to be pulled out of Camp 4 and shipped of to a mental hospital with no right to be released - even if that were in his best interest from others' perspectives."
that comment comes from the FACT that Reagan tossed em all out in the street pal. YOU can look it up, but obviously you didn't bother to do that.
I get the impression you have no appreciation for serious mental illness, or you would not make stupid comments like the one above.
For ONE example, the unabomber chose not to take his meds. I'm sure you are glad that he was allowed his freedom for all those years and bombings.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
|
Raygun closed a bunch of the Ca state mental facilities as a cost saving gesture while he was Ca governor, putting all sorts of people on the street, that's all there is to that.
My Aunt, a social worker in Napa at the time, was unhappy with that situation, btw.
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
|
The reference was to Reagan in the 80's "as President".
His governorship was in the 70s. It is easy to imagine someone whose livelihood depended on government funding being upset.
The trend of the second half of the 20th century was to eliminate psychiatric hospitals whose existence depended primarily on involuntary care, especially wives, as it became clearer that they were not serving any remedial function and later as the role of brain chemistry became better understood.
Today, by state laws, involuntary institutionalization is limited for the most part to a few days for diagnostic purposes. After that, further involuntary retention requires court action.
The idea here is simply that a person has the right to refuse medical treatment, a civil right if you will.
|
|
museman
Big Wall climber
Poway, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
|
My brother is homeless...he showed up at my work place a few days ago and called me from the lobby with the usual story for money. He's 48 years old and will probably die in the street...
I ran him off without even coming out to talk to him...just before he hung up the phone he said that he loved me. He has stolen from me and my family for years, so I don't trust him, but I feel guilty for not helping him...what kind of man turns his back on his brother?
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
|
A man who can't do what is necessary for his brother.
He can only help himself, but won't. You can't force anything upon him except in exceptional circumstances where he is a "danger to himself or someone else".
Even then that control is fleeting. For better or worse. It would not change even if it were your spouse and not your brother.
EDIT: Except you would have obligations to the spouse, but have no legal right to find out what was wrong with her, unless she lost consciousness.
|
|
Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
|
Most painful situation, Museman.
Your answer: A thoughtful, human guy living in a complex world.
|
|
museman
Big Wall climber
Poway, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
|
I wish things were different with me and my bro. I hardly ever see him except when he turns up out of the blue. He has a terrible life, but I'm unsure how to help him. He has anger issues and such...I'm a little affriad of him as well and don't want my wife and kids around him. I keep hoping that some day things will get better, but they don't. He's in so deep now. I don't expect he can get out on his own, so there lies the dilemma at least for me.
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
|
This thread brings so many thoughts and questions to mind.
One immediate thought:
"such a bummer that they put one way deposit doors and locks on the extract doors or Salvation Army clothes donation boxes, they made for awesome, toasty warm, urban bivy sites.
Another thought:
I wonder if Colorado Outward Bound, leadership training semesters still include a 3 day "Urban Immersion" section. I rather doubt it in this day and age of law suits, lawyers and insurance companies.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
|
I realized that was how it was stated TIG, but I think it really goes back to (was impinged on, by) the earlier incident. Which is why I brought it up.
Sorry if that was too big a jump for you.
Good point that all state employees are superfluous, though, you continue to amaze us with your depth.
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
|
Jaybro,
I didn't state anything like "all public employees are superfluous." I pointed to a trend that started maybe in the 1930s of eliminating involuntary "incarceration" in mental institutions for two separate reasons - initially because it was recognized that they were not actually treating / curing anybody but simply removing them from society, then starting roughly in the 60's, the discoveries of modern psychiatric drugs.
We can bemoan all we want that people need help, and that we and health care givers understand the help that they need. But the trend in government is to prohibit forcing care and incarceration on non-criminals. Personally, I think that is a good thing, since it is too easily abused. OTOH, it is a difficult problem.
I suspect you would go nuts, if I were to force care on you that some medical professionals thought would be helpful and you disagreed.
It seems you have been fortunate enough to escape this horrible dilemma.
|
|
Anastasia
climber
Not here
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
|
I feel for your situation... It is the same as dealing with drug addicted family members/alcoholics.
I would talk to a Social Service agent about what is possible. I will then do my best with the avenues given. If your brother doesn't cooperate/refuses the help... Then I would walk away and comfort myself with the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
The deal is you need to try to help in order to psychologically be alright. You need to have phone numbers ready of programs, shelters, etc. You need to let your brother know that when he is ready, you can help him start the process of getting off the street. Yet if he refuses, walks away and only wants quick fixes like money. It is your duty to refuse him in order to not enable his situation. Plus, you need to be strong enough to refuse him in order to protect yourself, your wife and kids. You and your family come first, not him.
It is a hard place to be in. A place that you are willing to give your right arm to make things alright... Yet without his cooperation, you know doing so will be pointless sacrifice. Be careful not to lose that arm in vain. Make sure he sacrifices a bit of himself first before you invest. Plus, make sure that what you invest doesn't hurt your primary responsibilities which is your immediate family.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 05:31pm PT
|
I think RR's earlier moves against the 'Institution' of mental health, throw his latter chagrin in doubt. He was gov from '67-75, btw.
I may have been over the top, but it sure sounded like one of those 'private sector knows better,' kind of Trolls to me. Still does.
"I suspect you would go nuts, if I were to force care on you that some medical professionals thought would be helpful and you disagreed.'
I suspect you are correct.
"It seems you have been fortunate enough to escape this horrible dilemma."
-You and I are a couple of lucky dads! They might make us stop indulging in such inanities as climbing and talkingshit on the internet!
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 05:38pm PT
|
You are lucky!
I, not so much. If I were, I would know a lot less.
But I have a great kid - following his own course.
He'll be back next week for a while. Finals finished up Tuesday.
Have happy holidays. Sure would be nice to see a warm spell. Haven't been on rock since August!
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
|
Good luck with that bad luck, sounds like a TR in the making. Positive vibes, in any case.
My daughter is coming home from college yr one for the holidays as well. Told ya, we were lucky dads!
not since august? yikes! gotta be somewhere you can go?
|
|
Nohea
Trad climber
Aiea,Hi
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 07:20pm PT
|
I have handed homeless $$ before but since I had a job in downtown Honolulu and being asked by more homeless folks for $$ I started saying (because the 1st time it worked and was the truth)"Dood, I am heading to the coffee shop but only have $10, I'll tell you what, I'll split it with you, order anything you want up to $5, I am having a coffee and bisquit." They so far have followed me into the shop (not strbks) tell me their order and ask for it to be take out and go their way. One guy said he couldn't move could I bring him a pepsi and bisquit, I agreed.
Ah hell you go tme stated.
When I work in town I usualy bike, as I pass Pearl Harbor there is a homeless wahine who is screaming about the governemnt blowing up the trade centers (like we see here at times) so about 10 years ago I was yelling back at her. It woke me up, gave me laugh, and I went on.
About 4 years ago I decided to try being nice to her, and would greet her with "Good Morning Beautiful, How are you today, its a great day, I wish you the best" as I biked by. After many weeks she would see me coming and quit yelling. then one day, she very casually said, "Be safe out there" I thanked her and we have exchanged pleasantries ever since, though we rarely see each other much.
Aloha,
wil
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
|
Museman,
It sounds like your brother needs a conservator. I'm not sure if he has any psychiatric issues, dementia, dependency issues, or is a danger to himself or others, etc. If he is, though, you could probably petition to have a conservatorship established for his benefit. Given his condition, the court would likely appoint the public guardian (the county really) who would provide placement for him and apply for benefits on his behalf. He'd be uphappy about his loss of freedom, but he'd be a lot better taken care of and off the streets.
|
|
Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
|
the street is dangerous, so if you turn someone out, the problem usually takes care of itself.
street freaks get torched in New York, three homeless people were murdered near LA not long ago.
The problem is if you take someone in, they will never leave.
lose lose situation.
just cover your own bacon so you do not have to share dumpster meals with anybody?
|
|
zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
|
Dang, I just started this thread cuz this dudes behavior struck me kinda funny. I wasn't really expecting such well thought out responses.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!