Prop. 8 Supporters--YOU SUCK!!!

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S.Powers

Social climber

Jtree, now in Alaska

Oct 25, 2008 - 05:32pm PT

"and still no answers to my valid questions...with all the hatred spewing my way, you'd think i'd be the one keeping silent, but i'm trying to have a rational discussion on something that is obviously very important to our society"

Please elaborate you questions more clearly, because all the questions you have posted have been answered. In order to have a rational conversation you have to read ALL of the posts.

And which of your questions were valid? what makes them valid? The only questions I have seen you pose have been a part of an irrational (thats the opposite of rational) slippery slope argument. You cant argue against a slippery slope argument because it is based in speculation not facts.

Flashlight

climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 05:55pm PT

Bookworm...you are wasting your breath trying to explain the issue to people who don't want to see it. Marriage has been between a man and a woman for thousands of years and now people want to change that. You won't get answers to your questions, just attacks on your character.

Domingo

Trad climber

El Portal, CA

Oct 25, 2008 - 05:58pm PT

"Marriage has been between a man and a woman for thousands of years and now people want to change that."

Homosexuality has been occurring, written about, talked about, and accepted/hated (depending on the culture) for millenia, actually.

It also occurs with some amount of frequency in males and females of other organisms.

Why are you people in denial?

Flashlight

climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:05pm PT

Myths and Facts about Proposition 8
MYTH: Proposition 8 enshrines discrimination in our Constitution.
FACT: Proposition 8 does not discriminate against gays; it simply restores the meaning of marriage and protects it as an essential institution that has benefited mankind since the beginning of time. Every culture in the world understands that marriage is between a man and a woman. Californians from all walks of life and ethnic backgrounds, whether religious or not, agree that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Proposition 8 does not take away any rights from gay and lesbian domestic partners. Gays and lesbians in California can already enjoy all the legal rights and benefits of marriage. The California Family Code says, “domestic partners shall have all the rights, protections and benefits” of married spouses. There are NO exceptions to this. Proposition 8 will not change that.
MYTH: Allowing gay couples to legally marry does not affect anyone else.
FACT: The narrow decision of the State Supreme Court effectively renders all civil marriage meaningless and will result in tremendous confusion for children. The state Education Code (§51890) requires that teachers instruct children as young as kindergartners about marriage. If the gay marriage ruling becomes permanent, teachers will have little choice but to teach young children there is no difference between gay marriage and traditional marriage.
We should not accept a court decision that results in public school teachers teaching our kids that gay marriage is acceptable. That is an issue for parents to discuss with their children according to their own values and beliefs. It should not be forced on us against our will.
MYTH: This proposition is the work of right wing radicals and extremists to attack the rights of gays.
FACT: Proposition 8 is supported by a broad range of organizations and individuals, including faith leaders representing virtually every faith in California – and those who subscribe to no faith at all. People from every walk of life believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Over 1.1 million Californians signed the petitions to put Proposition 8 on the ballot.
If gay marriage advocates want to change the definition of marriage, they should have to put a ballot measure before the voters to do so. This has never happened. Instead, they have gone behind the backs of voters and convinced four activist judges in San Francisco to redefine marriage for all of society. That is the wrong approach.
Proposition 8 does not interfere with gays living the lifestyle they choose. However, while gays can live as they want, they should not have the right to redefine marriage for the rest of society.
MYTH: The majority of the State Supreme Court said that gay marriage is a “right”, so the rest of us should leave the issue alone.
FACT: Ultimately, the legal meaning of marriage is up to the people to decide. Four judges on the Supreme Court declared that gay marriage is a “right” because the traditional definition of marriage did not expressly appear in the state Constitution itself. Proposition 8 overturns the court’s flawed decision by amending the state Constitution to include the common-sense definition of marriage that was previously approved by over 61% of the voters (Proposition 22, enacted in 2000, “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California”).

From:http://www.protectmarriage.com/

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:08pm PT

quotes that support bookworm and judy:

All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people.
Adolf Hitler

All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.
Adolf Hitler

Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless.
Adolf Hitler

Anyone who sees and paints a sky green and fields blue ought to be sterilized.
Adolf Hitler

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
Adolf Hitler

As soon as by one's own propaganda even a glimpse of right on the other side is admitted, the cause for doubting one's own right is laid.
Adolf Hitler

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

Demoralize the enemy from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, assassination. This is the war of the future.
Adolf Hitler

Generals think war should be waged like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. I have no use for knights; I need revolutionaries.
Adolf Hitler

Germany will either be a world power or will not be at all.
Adolf Hitler

Great liars are also great magicians.
Adolf Hitler

Hate is more lasting than dislike.
Adolf Hitler

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future.
Adolf Hitler

How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.
Adolf Hitler

How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.
Adolf Hitler

Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.
Adolf Hitler

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
Adolf Hitler

I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker.
Adolf Hitler

I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.
Adolf Hitler

If today I stand here as a revolutionary, it is as a revolutionary against the Revolution.
Adolf Hitler

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
Adolf Hitler

It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.
Adolf Hitler

It is not truth that matters, but victory.
Adolf Hitler

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
Adolf Hitler

Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles and it will only perish through eternal peace.
Adolf Hitler

Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be "discovered" by an election.
Adolf Hitler

Strength lies not in defence but in attack.
Adolf Hitler

Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle.
Adolf Hitler

Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.
Adolf Hitler

The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.
Adolf Hitler

The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
Adolf Hitler

The day of individual happiness has passed.
Adolf Hitler

The doom of a nation can be averted only by a storm of flowing passion, but only those who are passionate themselves can arouse passion in others.
Adolf Hitler

The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler

The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler

The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it.
Adolf Hitler

The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.
Adolf Hitler

The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.
Adolf Hitler

The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
Adolf Hitler

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Adolf Hitler

Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.
Adolf Hitler

What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
Adolf Hitler

Who says I am not under the special protection of God?
Adolf Hitler

Whoever lights the torch of war in Europe can wish for nothing but chaos.
Adolf Hitler

Words build bridges into unexplored regions.
Adolf Hitler

Flashlight

climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:08pm PT

Domingo, all kinds of immoral behavior has been occurring for thousands of years also, that doesn't make it right or acceptable.

Flashlight

climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:09pm PT

Well, I guess I am now the Hitler of Supertopo.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:12pm PT

not saying YOU are HITLER, silly!

just saying that, like it or not, you do have some things in common, wrt the way you see this issue.

here are some quotes that do not support your point of view:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/q109075.html

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:13pm PT

and:

A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A lie cannot live.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A man can't ride your back unless it's bent.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A man who won't die for something is not fit to live.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A nation or civilization that continues to produce soft-minded men purchases its own spiritual death on the installment plan.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A right delayed is a right denied.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A riot is at bottom the language of the unheard.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

A riot is the language of the unheard.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

All labor that uplifts humanity has dignity and importance and should be undertaken with painstaking excellence.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

All progress is precarious, and the solution of one problem brings us face to face with another problem.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Almost always, the creative dedicated minority has made the world better.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man can't ride you unless your back is bent.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I am not interested in power for power's sake, but I'm interested in power that is moral, that is right and that is good.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I just want to do God's will. And he's allowed me to go to the mountain. And I've looked over, and I've seen the promised land! I may not get there with you, but I want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over, and I've seen the Promised Land.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I submit that an individual who breaks the law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I want to be the white man's brother, not his brother-in-law.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

If physical death is the price that I must pay to free my white brothers and sisters from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

If we are to go forward, we must go back and rediscover those precious values - that all reality hinges on moral foundations and that all reality has spiritual control.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice, and... when they fail to do this purpose they become dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Life's most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Never succumb to the temptation of bitterness.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

One of the greatest casualties of the war in Vietnam is the Great Society... shot down on the battlefield of Vietnam.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Pity may represent little more than the impersonal concern which prompts the mailing of a check, but true sympathy is the personal concern which demands the giving of one's soul.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Property is intended to serve life, and no matter how much we surround it with rights and respect, it has no personal being. It is part of the earth man walks on. It is not man.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Science investigates religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power religion gives man wisdom which is control.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Seeing is not always believing.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

That old law about 'an eye for an eye' leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The art of acceptance is the art of making someone who has just done you a small favor wish that he might have done you a greater one.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The first question which the priest and the Levite asked was: "If I stop to help this man, what will happen to me?" But... the good Samaritan reversed the question: "If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him?"
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of true education.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The means by which we live have outdistanced the ends for which we live. Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The moral arc of the universe bends at the elbow of justice.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The past is prophetic in that it asserts loudly that wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The quality, not the longevity, of one's life is what is important.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The question is not whether we will be extremist but what kind of extremist will we be.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The time is always right to do what is right.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

There is nothing more tragic than to find an individual bogged down in the length of life, devoid of breadth.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

To be a Christian without prayer is no more possible than to be alive without breathing.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

War is a poor chisel to carve out tomorrow.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We are not makers of history. We are made by history.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We have guided missiles and misguided men.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We may have all come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must build dikes of courage to hold back the flood of fear.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war but the postive affirmation of peace.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We must use time creatively.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We who in engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

We will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:15pm PT

and:

Bob Marley isn't my name. I don't even know my name yet.
Bob Marley

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.
Bob Marley

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!
Bob Marley

Every man gotta right to decide his own destiny.
Bob Marley

Every time I plant a seed, He say kill it before it grow, he say kill it before they grow.
Bob Marley

Get up, stand up, Stand up for your rights. Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
Bob Marley

Herb is the healing of a nation, alcohol is the destruction.
Bob Marley

I don't stand for the black man's side, I don' t stand for the white man's side.I stand for God's side.
Bob Marley

I've been here before and will come again, but I'm not going this trip through.
Bob Marley

If you get down and quarell everyday, you're saying prayers to the devil, I say.
Bob Marley

In this bright future you can't forget your past.
Bob Marley

Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality. Wake Up and Live!
Bob Marley

Man is a universe within himself.
Bob Marley

Me only have one ambition, y'know. I only have one thing I really like to see happen. I like to see mankind live together - black, white, Chinese, everyone - that's all.
Bob Marley

My future is righteousness.
Bob Marley

My music fights against the system that teaches to live and die.
Bob Marley

My music will go on forever. Maybe it's a fool say that, but when me know facts me can say facts. My music will go on forever.
Bob Marley

None but ourselves can free our minds.
Bob Marley

One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.
Bob Marley

Open your eyes, look within. Are you satisfied with the life you're living?
Bob Marley

People want to listen to a message, word from Jah. This could be passed through me or anybody. I am not a leader. Messenger. The words of the songs, not the person, is what attracts people.
Bob Marley

Rastafari not a culture, it's a reality.
Bob Marley

Tell the children the truth.
Bob Marley

The good times of today, are the sad thoughts of tomorrow.
Bob Marley

The harder the battle the sweet of jah victory.
Bob Marley

The more people smoke herb, the more Babylon fall.
Bob Marley

When one door is closed, don't you know, another is open.
Bob Marley

When you smoke the herb, it reveals you to yourself.
Bob Marley

You have to be someone.
Bob Marley

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:25pm PT

Flashlight:

I did not attack your character nor the character of Bookworm. I am trying hard not to do that. I am trying to help people see the bigger issue here, the civil rights issue and how that is a far more important thing than the moral issue.

Equality for all outweighs the views of a select group. Marriage may have been between a man and woman for a long time, but I suspect that was largely due to the fact that homosexuality was viewed as such an unacceptable and deviant behavior for so long (I hate to say it but we can largely look to the Catholic Church for that, as we can look at many other religious/spiritual organizations throughout history that did not condemn homosexuality to the extent the Catholic Church has). We are evolving as a society, progressing into an era where the members of our society who have found partners of the same sex with whom they wish to spend their lives should be able to enjoy all the privileges of those who found partners of the opposite sex.

Do the right thing, support civil rights, support progress towards equality.

Vote no on proposition 8.

EDIT:

Quoted from Flashlight:

"MYTH: Allowing gay couples to legally marry does not affect anyone else.
FACT: The narrow decision of the State Supreme Court effectively renders all civil marriage meaningless and will result in tremendous confusion for children. The state Education Code (§51890) requires that teachers instruct children as young as kindergartners about marriage. If the gay marriage ruling becomes permanent, teachers will have little choice but to teach young children there is no difference between gay marriage and traditional marriage.
We should not accept a court decision that results in public school teachers teaching our kids that gay marriage is acceptable. That is an issue for parents to discuss with their children according to their own values and beliefs. It should not be forced on us against our will."

This is simply NOT a true statement. The superintendent of California Department of Education has made it clear that this is simply NOT a true statement. End of story. There is no required marriage curriculum for public school teachers.

Flashlight

climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:28pm PT

How can a sexual choice be viewed as a "civil right".

I don't see where blacks had any choice in the matter. Homosexuals do.

Homosexuality is STILL an abnormal and deviant behavior. I think you meant to say that society has "devolved". You think because society has changed its values over the years that it is for the better? I submit that there is not one person in their right mind who can say that society, as a whole, is better today than in years past.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:40pm PT

re:How can a sexual choice be viewed as a "civil right".

I don't see where blacks had any choice in the matter. Homosexuals do.

Homosexuality is STILL an abnormal and deviant behavior. I think you meant to say that society has "devolved". You think because society has changed its values over the years that it is for the better? I submit that there is not one person in their right mind who can say that society, as a whole, is better today than in years past.

see?
same judy as ever.
give him an opening, paybe a nudge or two, and all the ignorance and hate pours out.

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:42pm PT

From Flashlight:

"How can a sexual choice be viewed as a "civil right".

I don't see where blacks had any choice in the matter. Homosexuals do.

Homosexuality is STILL an abnormal and deviant behavior. I think you meant to say that society has "devolved". You think because society has changed its values over the years that it is for the better? I submit that there is not one person in their right mind who can say that society, as a whole, is better today than in years past."

Thank you Flashlight. I believe my discussion with you is now over. I absolutely disagree with you 100%, homosexuality is in no way an abnormal or diviant behavior. Homosexuality is NOT a choice, you do not wake up one day and say "Hmm, lets try men today." Society has evolved in just about every aspect. I will, and entirely IN my right mind, say that society as a whole, is better today than in years past.

Now I will attack your character: You are a racist, hateful person. To say these things is to say that we were better off 60 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago when people had far less freedoms and far less equality. This is without a doubt an ignorant and hateful view point. Your views far beyond Prop 8 just became clear with your last statement.

Thanks for coming to the Debate, you just lost. The world would be a better place without people like you. You racist, hateful biggot.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:43pm PT

from one of my links above:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mohandas Gandhi

hoip-
it's so easy to hate judy, ask around, i have been there.

he deserves our empathy and our understanding, as do all people.
his views are the products of the views of those who have influenced him, just as their views were the products of those who influenced them.

hate is learned.
ignorance can be overcome, it is not a trait but a burden.

dirtbag

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2008 - 06:51pm PT

Yep. For all the high-falutin arguments about Supreme Courts trumping voters will and all that other stuff it is all just a cover for the fact they do not like gay people. If there was truly a disease that struck gay people I think a lot of them would be cheering, like Falhole did in the 80s when he and others thought AIDS would do the trick (I'm sure they were disappointed when it didn't "work").

They say they hate the "sin" and not the "sinner" but that is a lie.

Grant Meisenholder

Trad climber

Oct 25, 2008 - 06:52pm PT

Flashlight sez, "I don't see where blacks had any choice in the matter. Homosexuals do"

What an ignorant statement. Do you know anything about biology and genetics? Have you spent any time in a (non-hate filled) conversation with someone who is gay about why and when they realized they were gay?

It is not a choice. Sure, there are those who find themselves curious and are "gay by choice." But they are really far and few between. And there are those who are gay and repress it because they feel ashamed and want to live a "normal" life. But ask them how happy and fulfilled they are.

When did you realize that you were attracted to women (assuming you are)? Did you make a conscious choice about that? (If you did, then maybe you should reassess your decision.) It's the same thing for homosexuality. It's not a choice, it's an instinct.

And who are you to impose your lifestyle choice on anyone else? You are free to live your life according to your convictions here in America, but no way can you impose that on anyone else. That would be immoral and anti-American.

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Oct 25, 2008 - 07:13pm PT

At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear.
Martin Luther King, Jr

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I probably don't have much room to speak as I have been vile at times, but the above quotes are the things that I have been striving to make a part of my life. I still feel hatred for some beliefs and it has been a struggle for me to come to grips with this and figure out how to Love.

My teacher teaches that Homosexuality is a choice. I believe this. It is often not a choice made in this lifetime but one made in previous lifetimes. That is why it appears to be genetic. The choice usually stems from some serious damage done by the opposite sex which leads either to a deep seated hatred or a deep seated fear or both. Imagine if you were a woman and you were raped, beaten and kept as a slave. You might grow to hate men, and yet you would still have a sexual drive and a desire to be intimate and share a oneness with another human. For a time you might sublimate your sexual energy, but ultimately it would come out.

The way forward is to understand where the hatred or the fear comes from and face it. This can be a very difficult thing, which is why I have compassion for those dealing with this and why I wont vote for prop 8. This matter is between the person and their God. I think ultimately it is wrong to pursue a homosexual relationship, but I also believe in the saying "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I will not cast the first stone of voting for this proposition. If I am wrong about this, then that is between me and my God.

God put us here and gave us free choice as to how we will live. I believe choices that harm no one but the person or persons involved should for the most part be left alone.

I hope those who oppose gay marriage will look a bit deeper and find compassion, and I hope that those who respond angrily towards them will think about the above quotes from a great man. Hatred will not overcome hatred.