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Michael Kennedy
Social climber
Carbondale, Colorado
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Oct 22, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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klk correctly notes that, "Alpinism used to be the common ground that joined rock climbers, ice climbers and, yes, even boulderers, but that's no longer the case," and further, "The attempt to show that alpinism was the historic context to which all our specialties belonged, failed precisely because most climbers don't care or else don't want that to be true."
The failure lies on all sides, from the "pad people" to the "elitist single-push fanatics." Alpinism is no longer the sole or even most significant wellspring of innovation, passion, and energy in our climbing world. It would be wonderful to see a reawakening of interest in our shared history and ethos, but this lack of perspective is a symptom of a broad cultural (with a big C) shift. As climbing has become more mainstream, our culture (with a small c) has reflected and embraced mainstream values, attitudes, and aspirations.
Live it up, fill your cup, drown your sorrow
And sow your wild oats while ye may
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow
Were the Tigers of Yesterday
(Tom Patey)
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Binks
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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The only thing that matters is the latest teenager to send grid bolted 5.16c. I'm sure R&I and Climbing will continue to let us know these important facts.
The rest of us wish Alpinist was still around.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:38pm PT
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Hi Michael!
Live it up, fill your cup, drown your sorrow
And sow your wild oats while ye may
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow
Were the Tigers of Yesterday
(Tom Patey)
Which, in a way, is a perfect example of what someone said upthread about Alpinist's assumption that readers could see historical context without having it spelled out for them. What percentage of the climbing population in 2008 knows who Tom Patey was?
We who participate here on ST are hardly representative of the greater climbing community. We're heavily skewed toward elderhood, we care about whose shoulders we are standing on (c'mon, ST'ers, name the source of that allusion), and we embrace all facets of climbing whether we ourselves participate in them or not.
Given that the population of people who would consider buying a climbing magazine is skewed the other way - young, not that familiar with (or interested in) climbing history, and mostly made up of boulderers and sport climbers, is it any wonder that Alpinist was their last choice?
But here's a question. When I last saw you (Michael K) about ten years ago, you showed me a few copies of a surfing magazine that you liked, and held it up as an example of a climbing magazine you wished you could see. Alpinist was pretty close to that, and it's come and gone. And yet that surfing publication lives on, and seems to be going strong. Full of history, full of good photography and decent writing...
Why are there enough surfers willing to support that magazine but not enough climbers willing to support Alpinist?
David Harris
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:48pm PT
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Mighty Hiker - You hit the nail on the head - sort of.
It is about demographics. Let's compare your average golfer and climber.
Golfer - good chance that he buys a new driver every two years. Some guys buy 2 per year. Cost about $300-700 a piece. He is no better than he was before, but he hits the ball at least 10 yards further each year. (Well his best drives are about 10 yards further than where he usually was on his average drive the year before).
Climber - He has reached his peak - at least a year ago - in most cases 5 to 20 years ago. He is still climbing on the same rack (that is supposed to keep him from hitting something hard at too high a velocity) that cost $700 ten years ago.
Golfer buys new balls about once a month. $50
Climber - replaces a cam after browning his trou realizing that got too far above it and that he really needed it to be bomber. (Or his partner refuses to lead until it is replaced). $70 about every 3 years.
Golfer - pays a minimum of about $50 to play 18 holes, or thousands per year to play at a country club where he does not have to pay greens fees (raising his per round cost to about $100 after all the other expenses including mandatory dining minimums). Often books a trip with his buddies to more expensive resorts to play the famous courses.
Climber - Shares his $75 per year pass at a park with somebody who does not pay and whines that it used to be only $50. He tries to sneak into a world class climbing area like the Gunks, uses the portable toilet or the nasty permanent one to avoid the $9 access fee.
Knowing the demographics, for which publishing company do you want to try earning a living selling advertising?
OK, you won't find any pictures of lady golfers climbing in a bra top.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:48pm PT
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"If I can see farther, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants", or variants thereof, is often attributed to Sir Isaac Newton (17th century CE). I was at Newton's birthplace in Stoke Rochford two years ago.
The first reference to the saying is apparently in writings of Bernard of Chartres, from 1159 CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants
Back on topic, it's no revelation that climbers could and probably should be more attuned to their commonalities, rather than accentuating their differences. Anyone with any history and perspective knows that bouldering, slacklining, and even convenience/low-risk/sport climbing didn't start yesterday - including most of the cranky old farts on SuperTopo who sometimes pretend to disrespect such things. Also that we're all roots and branches of the same tree - none of climbing's sub-variants has really become established as a cutting on its own. (Add appropriate botanical metaphor - not my field.) We're more of a community than many of us are sometimes ready to admit, and could do better at being a community, for all our supposed individualism and freedom.
Looking at it another way, I believe that it's good politics to unite, not divide. Obama and the Democrats generally want to unite, McCain and the Republicans are still trotting out their wearisome divisive tactics. If we don't hang together, we'll hang separately. (So who said THAT?)
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adam d
climber
CA
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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not sure how accurate this is but, "the worldwide surfing population is estimated to be between 17 and 23 million."
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/786278.html
"An Outdoor Industry Association survey showed the number of climbers grew from 7.5 million to 9.2 million people from 2004 to 2005" and that must include purely gym climbers.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_/ai_n21127578
the short answer is...Surfing is HUGE compared to climbing
as for golf, you know the difference between climbing and golf?
Golfing you hear "WHACK....shit"
Climbing you hear "shiiiiit..............
WHACK!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 22, 2008 - 05:58pm PT
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Two other salient differences between climbing and surfing.
First, virtually everyone who does surf, surfs in the ocean. There is a shared common environment, whether you're a long boarder or a grommet. That's not the case for climbing.
Second, the beach has an iconic place in America pop culture that mountains can't rival. They were the Beach Boys, not the Mountain Boys, and it was "Surfer Girl" and not "Offwidth Girl."
That said, given the immense corporate investment in peak bagging in the 1990s, you'd think that there might be a potential market far above the typical climber lowball hardcore.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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I knew a girl who was,... never mind.
Yeah, Patey and Harding should be mandatory reading material before you are permitted to buy climbing shoes.
But what can I say? The world is going to hell in a cocked hat.
Bemoaning the passing of a superior publication while we merrily go on to destroy the biosphere is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
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Katie_I
Mountain climber
Wyoming
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Oct 22, 2008 - 08:41pm PT
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It's been fascinating reading these posts. It’s odd to think of having so many good memories of sitting in an office—but all the stories I got to read or edit, when I was at Alpinist, all the tales that people like you told me over the phone, inspired my own imagination so much. I loved the kind, adventure-worn sound of Tom Frost’s silvery voice; the intense, fierce luminosity of Steve House’s writing style; the curious, unexpected turns of phrase that made Peter Croft's and Tom Higgins’ descriptions of each climbing move seem like an encounter with a fantastic dreamworld; the bright “coal” that still glowed in Jack Roberts’ description of the North Face of Huntington; the rigorous adherence to truth and Zen-like beauty of Kim Czismazia’s phrases. And countless others. Marcel Proust once wrote that every writer gives his or her readers a new world. I felt that way about all the pieces our writers shared with me—each one let me see a new glimpse of the mountains and the crags and added to that internal topography that underlies our richest experiences of the wild.
I’d go out on my own humble forays into the Tetons on the weekend, feeling as though all these stories and characters accompanied me. And of course, sometimes I’d run into some of you there. Watching the fluidity, grace and confidence of Rolo Garibotti guiding his clients along the Cathedral Traverse gave me a new insight into the elegance of his prose.
In the past few days I’ve been thinking about one line more than any other. In his Mountain Profile on Mt. Huntington, Clay Wadman wrote, “In my youth I remember a vision of a place savage, yet fragile, so sublime it existed completely beyond human experience. I called it the ‘Realm,’ a wilderness that once perceived is destroyed forever.”
For me, working at Alpinist was, in many ways an entrance into this “realm”—a radiant, glimmering world that contained the kinds of dreams that fade the instant you attempt to capture them. As Marko Prezelj once wrote, “the essence of a climb burns out in the moment of experience. The core of an alpinist’s pursuit will always lie in ashes.”
Of course all words—and all magazines—will never fully seize that essence. Of course Alpinist wasn't perfect. But as I used to say to our writers, if you want to improve climbing literature, it’s ultimately up to you. Cynicism is too easy. Our pursuits and our expressions of them are only as meaningful as we make them. If we think that climbing is an art; if we think that the alchemy of adventure and wilderness has the ability to transform us; if we think that a connection to history, to the natural world and to each other, are part of what makes us vividly alive and human—then it’s up to us to push our limits as thinkers and creators as well as climbers and to find outlets for those visions and for the stories that reflect them.
I liked to think that Alpinist was one such outlet, however flawed--at least we tried to make it that way. But there are other outlets, too. I’ll keep pursuing that “Realm” wherever I can find it--as a writer, for now.
thanks,
Katie
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Phantom Fugitive
Trad climber
Misery
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:23pm PT
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Here's my plan:
1. Bigstone(R&I), buy Climbing, and join forces with their team. Call it something catchy, like "Climbing Rock & Ice Magazine"- double your content and talent.
2. Urbane Climber. Go away.
3. Alpinist, rise like a phoenix from the ashes to pick up the slack, have more ads, just keep them legit. Make your editing offices in the home you rent. Reduce the per issue cost by 3 dollars an issue and see how many more subscriptions you get.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
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"What percentage of the climbing population in 2008 knows who Tom Patey was?"
These really are Hard Years™.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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Amen Mister Kennedy.... Alpinist was a beautiful, Pictorial Magazine. I'm very sorry to here of they're demise in these extreme economic conditions. The climbing community is poorer with out them. I used to subscribe through the first few years but my mind is so cluttered with "climbs" I still want to do I don't need anymore stimulus....It Was an exceptionally beautiful magazine. Good night gentleman.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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hey there, say... i was wondering after reading this, too:
ghost's question:
"Why are there enough surfers willing to support that magazine but not enough climbers willing to support Alpinist?"
just a guess, too, on my part... but my son was into surfing, and we were not well-off money wise, at all... but it was easier for him to buy one surf board, didn't need much in the way of wetsuits in texas, and then, he could buy a mag whenever he wanted, as he had no other expenses...
perhaps young climbers have more expenses, as to equipment, and travel, but i am just guessing, etc....
just was curious, too, as ghost was...
say, i am new to all this, did the magazine get enough advertisement and was it in all the bookstores?
i'm always sorry to hear of good specialty magazines folding in, as i know someone's heart and soul was used to build them...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:18am PT
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Interesting discussion, and not atypical of elders puzzling out the times.
A subscription to Mountain, 6 issues, went for a subscription price of $44US in 1992, which is $64US in 2007. Alpinist went for $33.50 per year for 4 issues. Amazingly, the per issue price subscription price is around $10 for Mountain and $8 for Alpinist.
Rock & Ice in 2008 (the last year I have) goes for $29.96 for 9 issues, $3/issue subscription rate. Rock & Ice 17 (1996) was $24 for 6 issues, inflated to 2007 that is $31. So at that time the subscription cost was more like $5/issue. R & I 8 had a rate of $10/6 issues, that was 1968, in 2007 that would be $19, so $3/issue subscription rate.
A Summit subscription in 1986 went for $12 for 6 issues, $22 in 2007 a subscription rate equivalent of $3.67/issue.
The very first Climbing that I have is 112, 1989, they had just moved from Aspen to Carbondale, and increased cost pushed their 1 year subscription to $20 for 6 issues, $33 dollars equivalent giving something like $5.50/issue.
Climbing 163, which was a change of format, had a $28 annual subscription rate, $36.33 equivalent and about $6/issue, and 190, the first with a color spine, 1999, had 9 issues for $29.95, that's $37 equivalent of about $4/issue... in 2007 at $14.95 for a year of 9 issues, that is $1.67/issue...
A couple of things I noticed here... one is that I had started climbing in 1968 and didn't start subscribing to climbing magazines until around 1985, that's something like 18 years... much longer than most people stay in the sport. When I started, I read the classic mountain literature because: 1) you could borrow it from the library and 2) there was little modern literature in the english language.
Even though Mountain was the highest per issue subscription rate of the bunch, it managed to stay in business a very long time, longer than 10 years, the audience was "international" presumably the English speaking nations: UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the climbing community was tiny compared to what it is now. I couldn't afford a subscription in 1968, I'm sure, it would have been outrageously expensive (I think my first rope, from Chouinard Equipment, was something like $72).
It is quite possible that the "history" of climbing is no longer relevant. More climbers climb today than in the past. I remember climbing in Joshua Tree in 1970, you didn't have to wait in lines... a lot of the now popular climbs were yet to be done! The young climber of today is introduced to climbing at the gym (which they assume has always existed), and probably starts bouldering, then sport climbing. Whatever you can say about sport climbing, it is not infused with a sense of history (unless you climb at Smith Rock).
The modern climber may eventually get on a "trad route" which they correctly perceive as being a step up in commitment and risk. They get to make a choice among all the types of climbing: gym, bouldering, sport, trad. My guess is that they are unlikely to continue in the sport long enough to think about big wall, or alpine or real mountaineering. I'd guess an average "climber" does it for less than 5 years.
What is different about the SuperTopo crowd, I suspect, is that they have been climbing longer than 5 years.
While a magazine like Alpinist appeals to a certain subset of the climbers climbing today, it was largely irrelevant to the bulk of climbers. It did not present climbing as they experience it.
Chouinard once objected to the notion that people thought he was getting rich selling ice climbing gear to a very few demented geeks. His implicit analysis probably applies to magazines too.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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I have been climbing for 18 years. I dabble in all aspects of the sport, but probably do more alpine climbing than any other subset; if I broke it down, it would be alpine, bouldering, trad, sport, aid in terms of decreasing frequencies.
I regularly buy and read all of the major English-language magazines. Climb, Climbing, Rock and Ice, Gripped Vertical, Alpinist. The only ones I don't usually pick up are Urban Climber and Rock (the Australian one).
In terms of quality, Alpinist was probably top of the pack and Climb and Gripped are near the bottom.
That said, I never subscribed to Alpinist. I bought every issue, but picked it up in stores - it came faster and wasn't damaged that way.
The quality of writing in Alpinist was variable, issue X was a low point. Some of the other issues were quite good. The writing often seemed interchangable; no matter who the author was, the style was the same. This was a problem.
Although I'm primarily an alpine climber, the type of alpine climbing I do (mostly Grade III-IV routes in the local mountains) seemed not to feature much in Alpinist. I didn't see myself reflected much in the magazine. Every once in a while I wondered why.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Really interesting thoughts...some musings (as someone who covets large quantities of climbing literature).
Anders wrote: “There may actually be a declining number of people engaging in alpinism ("alpinist-days"), though there are clearly many impressive things being done. Improved equipment and technique, information, and the ease of travel, all have helped with that. But the total number may still be down.”
Any magazine covering climbing with the title "Alpinist" is going to be a niche rig. Ditto any clubs along those lines (AAC, ha ha). I think part of the bottom line is that most mainstream folks who consider themselves climbers aren't "alpinists" per se. Therefore, a rag with that title just won't have broad appeal.
I think Alpinist was heading towards having a much broader appeal, so, the timing of all this is bad.
Katie wrote, “And of course, sometimes I’d run into some of you there.”
Ahh, the Tetons. Great to meet you on the rock (Symmetry Spire) a few years back and hope to again in the future. Also, nice chattin' in Golden too.
Oplopanax wrote, “The quality of writing in Alpinist was variable, issue X was a low point.”
Interesting to note that in terms of issues that are hard to get, issue X is one of the rarer ones, for some reason (maybe the broader appeal of the Eiger Sanction cover shot?).
Given the relative success of Climing and Rock and Ice (Climbing may or has already passed Summit as the longest running climbing magazine??), I wonder if distrubution and access to such has something to do with sales numbers? I seem to see Climbing and Rock and Ice more in mainstream media locations (airports, news stands, etc).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Oct 23, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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J-bro wrote: "These really are Hard Years™." after a comment about Tom Patey.
C'mon Jbrah... you know that was the book by Joe "Six Pack" Brown, right? Say it ain't so! :-)
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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First the fire and now the credit crunch. It sucks.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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Say, whatever happened to Off Belay, and North American Climber, and...
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James
climber
Leavenworthless
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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Earlier this year, my roomate made a first ascent on Fitz Roy in an alpine style push. He also fired the Millenium Traverse, a V8 test of power endurance. I can touch the holds on the traverse. Spending five days sharing a single sleeping bag high on a Patagonia wall...it strains my imagination to put me there. I am not an alpinist but I am still a climber.
I could grasp Alpinist's stories on bouldering, big wall climbing, and El Cap free climbing. The descriptions of ephemeral ice mushrooms on Meru blew snow drift right over my head.
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