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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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Why don't we just occasionally bomb these people? Seriously, all this democracy building crap is a huge waste of time and money. If people in the Hindu Kush want to vote, they should do it on their own dime.
For those that think our mid-east adventures will turn out well, please take a history class.
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Trad Lead Expert
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Bluering-
Please read up on how those south-of-the border banana republics were created and what we had one to the people in those countries.
I am sure you will then understand what had happened to us on 9/11
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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Trad, I'm not necessarily saying we 'owe' anybody anything. I can see the merits of that type of foeign-policy thinking. I may not agree with it, but I can see the merits of it.
However if, in the long-term, these countries will become a larger and more direct threat (or burdon) to us here, shouldn't we consider intervening in the early stages before they go Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia on us?
As I understand it, the Afghani villagers really aren't big fans of the Taliban. They weren't really welcomed into Afghanistan. The took over and imposed their fanatic ideals on the people.
They didn't really trust us at first, either. How could you when you're seeing your country bombed? But the longer we've been there, the more the Afghani people see what we're trying to do.
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Trad Lead Expert
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Bluering-
I like your ideas of preventive/pre-emptive strike on people whom we believe will become threats in the future. I myself like to beat the hell out of my neighor whose trees have come over the fence and are dropping leaves in my pool. I would like to rid of the neighbor who married a ugly woman who makes me sick every time I looked at her. I also like to bash the motorbike of the kid who rides it up and down my street and the noise from the bike is disrupting my peace. I like to....
DO UNTO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULD WANT OTHERS TO DO TO YOU.
Did you know that written on God's paper money is the statement "IN DOLLAR WE TRUST?"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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Alright, now you're taking my comments out of the proper context.
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Trad Lead Expert
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Bluering-
What is the difference between street neighbors and nations? None. We all have to live and to respect each other and to play fair. Washginton has not abide by the Golden Rule and now many people around the world hate our government and want to destroy it and taking us along with it.
By the way, did you know that the dollar bills in your pocket/wallet actually worth more than what is written as the domination?
Per MSNBC just 15 minutes ago:
"Traces of cocaine taint up to 90 percent of paper money in the United States, a new study finds."
Now the new statement on the US dollar bill is "IN ESCOBAR WE TRUST." So, don't deface your paper money as they are worth more than what they appeared to be worth.
Have a nice day, my friend
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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The difference is all in legal terms. Universal legal terms.
If your neighbor and you hate each other you really can't take action LEGALLY. Unless your neighbor is directly threatening you with physical harm.
Now, if your neighbor is harboring as known murderer and the police say to send him out and your neighbor refuses, well the police will probably kick down the door and forcfefully detain all involved. And if guns are pulled, people are probably gonna die.
As to why Al Qaeda says we are the great Satan, well, that's largely a bunch of BS and definately no excuse to TARGET innocent civilians.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Bluering,
No offense, just curious. You're gung-ho like you're ex-military. Are you? I'm not, personally see these wars as nothing but detrimental to what future is left in this poor, misguided country, and most the dudes I know who are going up for yet another tour don't want to go to Afghanistan.
of course, this is after 1,2,3 or more tours in that illegal-as-hell conflict in Iraq. One soldier, a climber buddy who was in the battle of Falujah, said most of his horror stories involve small children. I don't think he wants to go back. Another buddy transferred to a national guard unit so he wouldn't have to go back for at least a year, via the back-door draft. The U.S. literally totters on the brink of economic ruin (despite what the media tells us), and yet the war machine keeps ramping up.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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No offense, just curious. You're gung-ho like you're ex-military. Are you?
Nope, just eager to "win" and get out. I have always been fascinated with military and wars though. Not really because I get some twisted pleasure from death, but I just find it intriguing.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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you are misguided in thinking that there is anything to 'win'.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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bluering is misguided in his fascination with the killing and destructive power of the military. He might have a different perspective on it, though, if he had actually served and saw time in the ME or Afghanistan. Without that experience, anyone who gets all excited about military power is a chickenhawk, probably with a tiny bazooka between their legs.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Yeah, you guys are probably right. I should strongly condemn the action. Or better yet, I should just ignore it like it ain't really happening.
Thanks for enlightening me and setting me straight.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 16, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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No Bluering you should not codemn the actions, but using terms like "kick ass" when we are talking about the loss of human life, I find is terribly wrong.
I believe you had a child about the same time I did, and i am sure that you love him very much, just like i love my boy, you should think about that when you talk about killing.
these are people we are talking about, not just numbers!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 16, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Look, Dave, let's get this straight, and I now climb with someone of Afghani descent, I don't really like seeing anybody killed.
When the US is sent to war and I see our guys in combat against people who blow-up girls schools, throw acid into women's faces, and harbor terrorists like Bin Laden, I say, "Yeah, help these people help themselves".
They are a tribal people outside the few bigger cities and we have no plans to interfere with that.
We have a specific target there. The ones who want to burden the country with an unwanted form of oppressive gov't.
So when I see our guys accomplish missions and rid the Afghani's of Pakistani exteremists, I say "kick ass".
And I'll continue to do so. This is largely a spillover problem from Pakistan's failure to oversee it's Western provinces.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 16, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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"I don't really like seeing anybody killed" no but you sure like to report it.
How does climbing with someone of Afghani descent make anything better?
You want to get things straight? then i will tell you- I have lost two friends in Iraq. they would still be here today if we had not started this war. One of my friends, Lt. Col. Rod Richardson lost his life battling this war. He was a climber and alot of people in the climbing community knew him as "k2". He spent more than 25 years serving his country, did several tours in Vietnam, and was in Afghanistan during the 80's. He told me lots of things that the general public would never know. Most importantly he told me not believe any of the media, they all have agendas.
so before you go spouting of statistics from your favorite news source, think about the people that are being affected.
"the only two things a man needs is more gear and beer"
Lt. Col. Rod Richardson RIP
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 16, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Bluering wrote
"They are a tribal people outside the few bigger cities and we have no plans to interfere with that.
We have a specific target there. The ones who want to burden the country with an unwanted form of oppressive gov't.
So when I see our guys accomplish missions and rid the Afghani's of Pakistani exteremists, I say "kick ass".
Sadly Bluey, you have your facts all wrong. I'm not an expert but I do have a degree in South Asian studies from Berkeley.
Those villages are strongholds of the Taliban. The Karzai government's only stronghold is indeed Kabul. If the Afghans we so happy to be freed from extremism, the government forces could have taken control of the whole country but they NEVER had it.
To the Afghans, we are little different than the Soviets. If there were an election in Afghanistan today to keep US protection or send us packing, we'd be gone in an instant. THey will NEVER stop fighting US presence just as you would never stop fighting a radical islamic force that occupied your country. IT's that simple.
Obama's nuts to ramp up Afghanistan but I guess the choice is either than or look like a loser because the Taliban would take right back over.
now why is that, when the whole country is full of tough fighting people who have had US support for 8 years now? All the while we've been using super weapons to kill as many taliban as possible
Think about it
Peace
karl
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