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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 21, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Who might be the "Twain of our age"?
Both William Burroughs and Gil Scott Heron, are (were) able to use
the Native voice along with stringent adherence of the rules of grammar and certain rule breaking to make a point.
There are others, as well, robert Zimmerman, John Prine, Laurie Anderson, William Gibson, etc...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
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What Dingus said.
Got news for yall - the vast majority of people cannot write for sh#t.
To which I would add: ...and they never could. To every wrinklie who shouts "kids today just don't know how to write" I would say there has never been a time when skilled writing was common.
English is a living language and it is in a constant state of flux
Most people believe that there is a "proper English." But when you press them, it turns out that their "proper English" is whatever they were taught in late elementary school. So whose proper English is really proper? Yours? Your grandmother's? Shakespeare's? His grandmother's? If you demand that those younger than you write the way you were taught to write, how do you defend the fact that your writing differs from that of those older than you?
D (who also read to his kids with as much emotion as he could, cuz he believed writing should serve as the vessel of ideas, not as the slave of grammar)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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" I assure you we Americans DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH and we certainly don't write it."
Too bloody right, mate. Come up to the Great White North where we speak the Queen's English.
Spelling and grammar count.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:09pm PT
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You're saying you guys are all queens, up there? eww!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:17pm PT
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"Americans" not only speak English, or at least a bastard form of English, they live in a liberal democracy. So there!
I'm currently reading a book about the history of the Oxford English Dictionary, which is fascinating. It is still the definitive dictionary of the English language and all its regionals variants and dialects.
As for queens and kings and that crap - the sooner we abolish them, the sooner they can go into therapy.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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This coming from the guy who somehow convinced ST'ers knott to spell a certain word properly. Oh the irony.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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RE:
" Who might be the "Twain of our age"?
I honestly think it might be George Carlin.
BTW, kinda amazing and refreshing anyone even mentions Gil Scott Heron, thanks.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
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Twain says, after recommending short sentences as the general rule:
"At times the writer may indulge himself with a long one, but he will make sure that there are no folds in it, no vaguenesses, no parenthetical interruptions of its view as a whole; when he has done with it, it won't be a sea-serpent with half of its arches under the water; it will be a torch-light procession."
ha!
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scuffy b
climber
Elmertown
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Aug 21, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
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Mighty, are you reading The Madman and the Professor?
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Aug 21, 2008 - 06:33pm PT
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Karla,
Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I know some very clear thinker who, for a variety of reasons, have real difficulty expressing themselves clearly. Likewise, I think we all know people who speak or write well, but lack real depth. My comments above were merely meant as a general comment on the current disdain for clear and precise thinking and communication--witness our President, the trenchant anti-intellectualism in our country (and at most universities), etc.
Brian
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 22, 2008 - 04:26am PT
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Yes politicians have to watch out for that clear and understandable stuff-- if they use it much, people will realize what morons they are and how bad they are screwing us.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Aug 22, 2008 - 05:31am PT
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First, learn how to effectively use language, any language or perception of it, to communicate with your own mind (vastly rare).
With that you will learn what 99.9999 percent of the people fail to learn because of plain intellectual laziness.
Then, learn how to communicate with others if you have any substantive reason to communicate with others.
Then laugh yourself to tears at the folks who fail to do the former, and somehow expect to be successful with the latter.
DougBuchanan.com
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 22, 2008 - 07:47am PT
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Twain was one of America’s best satirists. He is a distant relative, which has been traced by several cousins and is verifable. Before the Sawyers took the Oregon Trail to Oregon/Washington in the 1840s (my father is from Olympia), they lived in St Joseph, Missouri and apparently Twain (Clemens - Hannibal, Missouri) was a cousin, which is where he picked the name for the ‘autobiographical’ The Adventures of Tom Sawyer.
So who is the William Safire of Supertopians?
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Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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Regarding the opening post: I guess, as dirt put it: It's the hand basket thing.
To put things into perspective, I am not a native speaker of English, so my views might prove to be a bit invalid.
I enjoy to read (and write) in whole, correctly spelt (or would that be spelled - that's where Mr. Twain comes in for making U.S. English his own) words embedded in logical, nicely rounded sentences. It makes life so much easier to be able to convey one's thoughts as close to their original form as possible.
You've examined many aspects of "The grammatical handbasket theory" in this thread so far, so I guess I'll just subscribe to a few rants:
I don't like abbreviations, especially when newspapers invent an abbreviation for something and use it only once or twice in the whole article. Why not write down the whole thing?
Spelling is also important. Something that is written with decrepit spelling is hard to take seriously. English is difficult, you can have (as DMT pointed out) "to two too" or you can have a single letter change the pronunciation of ALL the sounds in a word (tough/though). But it's not impossible to know which is which (or would that be witch?) and when to use their/there/they're and the like. My native language of Hungarian is easy to spell, because it is completely phonetic. An O is an O no matter what. (The grammar is hellish though, so we're even.)
Two things that piss me off and haven't been mentioned so far:
1. Very bad spelling in the media (hire a proofreader if your "writers" cannot write). They should take pride in good grammar and spelling not botch the thing.
2. People who post on a forum and write "spelling?" behind some obscure or not-so-obscure word. e.g.: Vedawoo (spelling?) Dolfersitz (spelling?) If you know something is off, and don't have a map, encyclopedia or dictionary handy, use the internet and google it. But at least you know your weaknesses.
But I wouldn't make a great fuss about reading something on a forum that has errors in it. Not like this guy:
http://xkcd.com/326/
Piece (or is that peace?)
János
p.s: Sorry again Karl for stealing your piece (spelling?)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:29am PT
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RE:
"Twain was one of America’s best satirists. He is a distant relative, which has been traced by several cousins and is verifiable."
that's really neat Patrick...
hey, how 'bout this piece of Mark Twain lore??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley's_comet
pretty cool IMO.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 22, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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hey there hardman knott and flashlight... say...
my grandson does not seem to understand how to do any of that... but then, but his teachers did NOT correct any of his work in his early years---i tried to get his mom to talk to them, but to no avail... his hand-printing/writing etc, was terrible, too...
they let it slide downhill 'cause they were too busy back then... work, and all their ects, i reckon...
seems his little sisters are learning, though... good for them... sure hope it will continue....
but who am i to talk.... AS:
say, my internet writing in not too great (very flawed, i say), (being that--i am trying to "talk" and not "write" here...) course, i got to "type this all out" though, and everything i type usually comes out backward, so i have to do the re-do re-ride bit, first, and post it.... and if i stop my typing to do the caps, etc, then it gets even more complicated.... :0
but... this only happens with typing, not letter writing and paper... thus, when doing fast communications here on line, i opt for this "faster" style... otherwise, i would neglect my work-time, and thus not have time for my "real correct stuff" (which seems i like to do in my own odd way, anyway---oh, well... my "excuSe" can hardly exCUEs me...)
oh my, YEP... so....seems i've now done up-and-lost the ol' art, too... :0
*said all that, as i figure most folks dont want to stay on line too long, and save the better-stuff-style for work, etc...
maybe???? just a thought... oh, well, just throwing in what i hope is nice thought----it would be said if folks REALLY don't know this stuff now-a-days...
thanks for the interesting share, you all....
(say, it would not be a pretty sight if rock climbers took such short-cuts, etc, while seeking to tackle-and-claim-victory over the rock-routes, etc, huh? ) ....
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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hey there, ontheedgeandscaredtodeath,
say, i like this cool quote you shared here.. .it is very interesting:
"Twain says, after recommending short sentences as the general rule:
"At times the writer may indulge himself with a long one, but he will make sure that there are no folds in it, no vaguenesses, no parenthetical interruptions of its view as a whole; when he has done with it, it won't be a sea-serpent with half of its arches under the water; it will be a torch-light procession."
ha! "
Say, all... I think that writing is fun! It can be a stimulating path. It is even more-so-thus, however, when one can conjure-up the most special words from within ones heart, dust them off, knit them into strands of co-existance, to portray an event, and THEN not only get them to be written down in such an intriquingly provacative way, but to thus actually set them soaring off the page, as a bird in flight--and not only a simple bird, mind you--but one that will reach the highest heavens, in such gradeur, that one will never forget the experience. Man, oh, man... I sure like that...
yep... neebee loves this kind of fun...
thanks for the ol' share, there...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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hey there raydog.. say, nice to see you again here... say, i will second that... that is very neat to know, patrick... thanks for sharing...
say, there is some kind of a website somewhere that has a alphabetical list of twain quotes... perhaps patrick would be interested in seeing it... i wll see if i can find it... and put the link, in an edit here...
once again, thanks for the family-share, patrick...
*say there doug... say ... thanks for the share, too... sometimes i dont get the longer ones as they encompass stuff that i am not studied up on....
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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hey there mighty hiker... say, fancy meeting you here... say.. got any coffee?....
say, sam cooke had so many really great songs, very well done, etc....
*sad ending though, i had read that history about a year or so back, too... when i was looking for a song... thanks for the share---it is good for folks to know who the voices are behind the old-time songs...
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