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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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I agree Obama is an idiot.
Go McCain!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Yes Obama is all about telling people how to live. You characterized his world view perfectly. You should write his bio.
If you want McCain to be able to arrest your family on a whim, torture them and then keep them locked up indefinitely with no oversight you should go ahead and vote for him. Also you must be a millionaire because he obviously wants the tax burden to be shifted to the middle class and poor and to allow the hungry, sick and infirm to starve in the streets by dismantling all social programs. I can't wait to let my infant daughter work in a textile mill at age 4!
Informed and well reasoned debate is so much fun!
P.s.- nice backpedaling on the socialism bit, but its no different than me calling McCain "totalitarian" and then saying "oh but there are DEGREEs its all RELATIVE." It's bullsh#t.
P.P.S- lol Russ
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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I thought it was decided that water_boarding was not torture?
addendum: nothing wrong with entering the job market at 4. The times ahead will be tough, so she might as well get a jump on it before an illegal alien takes her place.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Couldn't agree more Russ. You have any bar tacking jobs available? I figure by 5 she'll be good to go with that and then I assume she'll need to transfer to something else by age 7 since she'll only have like 6 fingers left. Hell if Tommy can fire 5.14 with digits missing I'm not worried about my little girl.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I voted for an affable, charismatic, and bright young politician in 1960. I've never forgotten the lesson I learned from that mistake.
Obama has the first or second most leftwing voting record in the senate. He is a socialist. Lois is correct.
Now, before anyone pops their cork, we have always had socialist or far left senators and congressmen in government. This is good in that it balances out the various political philosophies that make our form of government work. I simply don't want one as President. The more leftwing legislation existing, the more centralized and powerful the federal government becomes and the less liberty to control one's own life is allowed.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"There ARE degrees of "totalitarianism" although I would submit you can find a different word which would capture the concept better. "
Ugh. That really is my whole point isn't it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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My point is that you can't see your own biases. I don't have a clue what your management style has to do with any of this, so I'll let you keep that tangent to yourself.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Actually (duh) I don't think torture, habeus corpus and taxing the middle and lower classes over the rich are stylistic issues at all. That is the substance of what they are doing. How much they delegate is stylistic. How much they inform themselves is stylistic. Two people can support torture and go about it in very different ways stylistically, but the end result is that they think torturing people is ok.
In any case that was not my point. My point is that you think characterizing Obama as "socialist" because you can put some of his ideas on a socialist spectrum is a fair assessment but that if I were to characterize McCain as "totalitarian" you would think that would be overstretching. It's the same thing. You just aren't seeing the mischaracterization with Obama because of your own biases.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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LEB your comparison is really far off. Totalitarianism is not a management style and torturing vs not torturing or believing in the right of habeus corpus vs not are not "stylistic" differences.
A more comparable comparison would be if you as a nurse believed that you had the right to withhold pain medication if you thought a patient wasn't hurting as bad as they said they were or if you thought administering a placebo was ok and I disagreed with you. These are not stylistic issues. A stylistic issue would be if you changed the IV bag vs asking me to change it vs screaming at me to change it. We both agree the IV bag needs to be changed.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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I'm confused. Just a few posts back, Lois was worried about Obama's "authoritarian" tendencies:
"That is fine, Wes, if you want Mr. O to tell you how to lead and run your life, be my guest."
But then, she seems to completely contradict herself:
"So what you are saying is that you find xyz candidate or office holder too authoritarian to suit your liking? ... I don't find the style offensive."
Hmmm. How do we explain this (in less than 3,000 words), Lois?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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I am going to have to plead ignorance on habeas corpus because I am not sufficiently informed on what it is
Yikes. Check the Bill of Rights, 5th amendment.
Well, as long as you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about, eh?
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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"I am going to have to plead ignorance on habeas corpus because I am not sufficiently informed on what it is..."
3rd grade history class, at least in the public school I attended. And the one of the fundamental concepts for most judicial systems of the free world. Not really important, though...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Good grief Lois, just close your mouth.
You are so uninformed it is mind boggling.
IF McCain wins, it will be on the heads of idiots like you when the country goes right on over the precipice on the way to total disaster.
BTW, you also obviously have not listened to Obama talk about any serious issues in depth.
This country can't handle 4 more years of repugnicant nonsense.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Woody is a flip flopper. Last week he supported Obama. I'm not voting for Woody now. I'm voting for old pucker face. Oh now I would be a flip flopper if I did that.
McCain has a great management style Lois, cringe, whince make an egotistical remark and smirk.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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I'll keep saying this until it gets through. I've seen Obama speak, and what he had to say was more about what we could do as citizens, and the power that we had to change our communities and our country, than what HE could do as President. I think this is pretty refreshing change from the past few decades.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Russ i too laugh robustly, haven't you McCain supporters had enough of being screwed in the @ss. This is not about hunting is it.
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jstan
climber
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May I make a suggestion? Arguing with Lois does not produce anything. It
wastes time we could use to better understand real issues. We are not
going to agree on how best to handle one of the real issues, nor should
we. But getting a chance to see different sides is how issues can be
understood. I would suggest we follow Roger’s "hypothetical approach"
and never come from the point of view that " this is the right thing to
do".
The first task would be to choose an issue. A long list but perhaps the
thing to do is to figure which of the issues have the most ST’ers
possessing detailed technical knowledge on the issues. We have medical
people, lawyers, academicians, Doctors, engineers, economists, financial
people, and any number of other disciplines. Furthermore we are all
consumers inside these issues. It will involve pulling together data and
the careful construction of arguments so it will be slow.
Comments?
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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McCain is Bush. Vote for McCain and you vote for 4 more years of the same old sh#t. You really would have to be very stupid to vote for a loser Republican after these past 8 years. Are you McCain supporters f*#king insane or what?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Comments?"
Yes. You should probably start this conversation in a thread with a less retarded title.
McCain is not Bush. Obama is not a socialist (or a secret Muslim). There's no point in discussing anything when everyone takes such polarized views on everything.
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