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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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Weapons are cool in the same way Bruce Lee was cool. They kick ass.
But are they used in offense or defense? That is the question which helps determine if their use is honorable or not.
Kicking someone's ass who tries to rob you is cool.
Kicking someone's ass because you thought they were checking out your girlfriend is lame and the sign of a total loser.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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The fact of the matter is, military personnel never want to go to war,
False.
On-site reporting from 29 Palms, land of the few and the proud.
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pleasantOs
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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"They Do They Don't"
Tied down against the tracks
Screaming in silent black and white
Why'd you trust us we are such villains
We would tell ourselves anything
we want to hear if we are willing
To listen is to learn
Then too much is what we deserve
And how come when we say that we do
We don't
Pray to anybody you want
We won't
But if we're the ones to blame then the fruit
Shouldn't taste so good we were used
Used to thinking we got nothing to lose
We're losing everything but the truth
Is walking straight into a roadblock ending left here bending
Your point of view was chosen by the serpent's ruse
With all its do's and don'ts
The future is an empty promise
Unconcerned and so tired of waiting
We could sell it wooden horses
full of nightmares and when they open
This all might recompose
There's no going back to the good old days
it's just a phase bring in some new life
Archaism is a dusty road leading us back to nowhere
But if we're the ones to blame then the fruit
Shouldn't taste so good we were used
Used to thinking we got nothing to lose
We're losing everything but the truth
Is walking straight into a roadblock ending left here bending
Your point of view was chosen by the serpent's ruse
How come when we say we do
We don't
How come when we say we will
We won't
~ jack johnson
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Russ
Did you ever see the movie Yes Sir! No Sir!!!
Yes, all soldiers want to go to war. You bet.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:18pm PT
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"liberals vs. conservatives = stupid distraction."
craig_mo - i want to buy you a beer - spot on....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
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ECap, I think you're actually serious. Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage? Are you just being disengenuous?
On one video, the fu-king gunner is telling command that hellfire fire would inflict less damage than randon .50 machine-gun fire. He even says, "f*#k " we need to fire a Hellfire to save people.
Dude, quit listening to michael moore's crap. The United Staes Marine Corps is probably more humanitarian than the United Nations, the ACLU, and Amnesty Int'l, combined.
You should bless the USMC, like I do, every fu-king night for your freedoms, AND THE FREEDOM OF GERMANS, JAPS, AND ITALIANS to actually be still alive AND THRIVING.
God Bless the USMC! (and all u.s. servicemen).
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Oh, and I forgot all about the collateral damage to our own
troops, like the brave Pat Tillman, killed by friendly fire, then covered up by the Pentagon. His poor mother is still trying to get the truth about his death from the 'honorable' military.
And too, those poor soldiers who've returned from 3 or 4 tours over there, those with PTSD, the hundreds that have committed suicide for what they saw and did there. And about the 'tremendous' support this administration is giving them in veteran's benefits (oh yeah, McBush is right up there at the top voting against those benefits for the troops).
How many of the miltary who've gone AWOL so they won't return to
Iraq, or of the women in the forces who've been raped and abused by their comrades in arms. Or have died due to dehydration in that desert because they are afraid of drinking water afternoons because they're terrified to go to the latrine at night fearing they'll be raped or worse.
yep, a helluva defense for our country.
I feel soooooo much safer now.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Wow, the faux-macho warmongers (as long as they don't actually have to go and fight, of course) on this thread reminds me of a bunch of 7th grade boys. Tanks! Keeeewl! Ooo machine guns! Keeeewl!
Pathetic.
A fair percentage of the GIs in those pictures can look forward to coming home and grappling with a lifetime of untreated PTSD. Killing and torturing people fortunately doesn't come naturally to humans. They'll pay with their psyches--funny, they didn't go over that part in the recruiting office.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
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My test of morality is this "get in their shoes and see if it still feels just"
Terrorists that nothing to do with Iraq took down the towers and we felt justified in attacking a country that had no link to the terror at all. Just happened to be the same religion but it was a secular country to boot.
Now that we attacked Iraq and killed many, many more innocent people than were killed on 9-11, don't the Iraqis have a similar greivance like we had after 9-11?
How can we feel good killing hundreds of thousands in a country that didn't attack us and didn't have anything to do with 9-11. Millions are homeless refugees now. It was easily known that factions would create civil war when the minority Sunni government was overturned.
Have you no shame? Doesn't it matter that it's BS that we're there? What's your grievance with people who are either innocent victims or defending their country against foreign invaders? Wouldn't you defend this country no matter who invaded us?
Grow up and join humanity
Peace
Karl
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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Nice post, Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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To the OP:
For your liberal friends?
Well isn't that sweet.
Well I have 2 words for you pal:
F U C K Y O U
And quite honestly, I mean that from the very bottom of my (liberal bleeding) heart.
It's one thing if you want to get all excited about a gun or guns, but it's another thing to get all excited about an unjust war, about the killing of innocent people- women and children included- at some unknown rate that we who do the killing don't bother to tabulate.
F U C K Y O U
That's really big of you to ask "where's Allah now, bitches?"
You must be a rich fat white American with little or no exposure to people of color, people of other cultures, people of other religions, etc.
(I really feel sorry for you (and the poor white trash family/community that you no doubt come from), all you get to appreciate in this world is whatever it is that you know something about already, but not all the wonderful things and peoples and cultures and traditions that you know little or nothing about).
But back to how pathetic you are-
Are you thinking that those people who our soldiers are detaining are necessarily guilty of anything? Because the instances of brutality and the use of lethal force upon innocents are well documented; that is not meant to be a stab at our soldiers, in a war there are going to be dead people, and not all of them are accurately identified as threats or enemies before they are killed, so necessarily innocent people are killed, and wounded, and have their families or communities destroyed.
You however, lack the humanity to comprehend such a thing. You are a product of a culture which has had the good fortune to fight it's wars on other people's front lawns for far too long. I bet the sootings at VT or whatever high school in whatever town grab your attention and elicit some sympathy, and some sort of shock that our fellow Americans do not (did you ever get all fired up on what type of "technology" any murderer in America used to kill people? I doubt it).
God, you are such a F U C K I N G D I C K to post something like that- ha ha to all of you who see these buildings exploding and wonder if somebody's kids are blown in half but still alive and bleeding to death while theiir parents watch- ha ha ha, looser "liberal friends".
I swear to God if you were standing right here in front of me right now, I'd knock some of those crooked teeth in your stupid ass redneck grin down your worthless inconsiderate racist throat.
I hope that karma is not just something some stoned monk once came up with, and I hope your karma rebate is to return in the next life and suffer like those for whom you have demonstrated in that post that you could give a rats ass about...
The only reason that Americans are over there fighting a "war"-
(though nobody can identify an enemy per se, so in fact we are simply occupying a country where the population does not want us to be, and we are doing that primarily because we want to establish and maintain access to their vast natural resources)
 is because people in this country are capeable of seeing war as you see it, and seeing people who do not look/act/speak/pray like them as being less human and less intristicly valuable.
I suggest that, if it is possible to somehow assign a value to an individual, many individuals in Iraq very likely have a greater intristic value than someone like you has...
bitches...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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Mr Gonzo, is anything worth fighting for? You would not have sent Marines into Baghdad?
I wonder how many Frenchies, Germans, Dutch, Danes, would dsagree with you. Have you no idea the sacrifice of a United States Marine?
Don't sh#t on them, they join and fight for a reason. And Iraqi's, in time, will draw a tear for their liberators. Iraqis are already volunterring to fight with Marines in Afghanistan...yeah, Iraq's volunteering to help Marines in Afghanistan.
You're a sad sack, sorry, I try to be nice here, but....
How many other countries sacrifice their soldiers for the freedom of others? Canada, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Germany, Italy (Spaniards are pussies, they bailed).
Maybe we should just the the almighty U.N. decide everything. PUSSIES!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Sorry Matt, you're a fag!
Hey wanna climb with me and Kev on Saturday?
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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I confess to sometimes fantasizing that those who fetishize violence fall prey to the same sorts of images they uphold in hopes for them to begin to see correctly.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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This was waaaaaaay too easy...
Too bad the climbing topics don't take off like this.
Ok, have at it...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 11, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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nice try you degenerate-
but karma points don't reappear so easily as that.
blueguy-
i think you ought to learn more about the reasons the UN was established in the 1st place, rather than take the word of people who either lie to you or who have demonstrated that they are simply wrong about literally everything else...
(edit- what was the UN saying? they were saying that yes there is an issue, a problem, but we could not actually convince them that the best solution was to invade- and look who is wishing we'd listened to the UN? only about %70+ of the US population. so, whether or not we did it alone, the ability to convince the UN ispotentially by itself a valid test of the basis or rationale for the war- or are you still convinced that donald rumsfeld "knew where the WMDs were", but simply didn't want to let the UN in on it? ha ha ha... THE JOKE IS ON YOU!)
we are gonna drag you idiots to a better world if we have to do it while you are kicking and screaming.
and yes, by invading iraq we have perpatrated a crime that is orders of magnatude greater than 9/11 ever was, even if all the official stories are true.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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Upthread L had this to say: "We are no better than the terrorists, we just have shinier weapons."
Tell that to the mentally retarded children whose parents wrap them up in explosives and send them walking around public places until they see the opportune time to push the button on their cell phone.
Or how about the countless Iraqi women murdered by their brothers every year because they dishonored their fathers by allowing themselves to be raped. This continues no matter who is running the country. It's cultural.
I'm not saying we're perfect, or that we even should be over there, but we are better than terrorists.
Anyone who is still confused as to why Bushco chose Iraq should just look at a map. Maybe the light will go off in your head.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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Bluering say:
"ECap, I think you're actually serious. Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage? Are you just being disengenuous?"
Why is this so hard for you to understand? I served. I didn't have to watch videos to pretend I know something about it.
And BTW, it is really touching that you considered enlisting or policing our borders. I can't imagine the sacrifice involved in considering it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Are we better than terrorists, Ksolem?
What about Abu Ghraib? The prisons at Bagram?
Those at Guantanamo? We're better than terrorists?
Waterboarding? Human rights violations?
The United States USED to be a beacon of freedom to the oppressed in the world. Not since shrub and his counterpart neocons took over. Anything goes. How about those mercenaries
from blackwater? Or Dyncorp?
How about those jerks from Halliburton/KBR--setting up electricity systems so they electrocute our own soldiers at their bases? Serving them untreated water?
Our government doesn't even send them into war zones with the proper protective armor.
And how many of our soldiers have been indicted for murder and rape of innocent Iraqi's?
And we're better than terrorists?
Surely you jest. . .
There, I feel much, much safer now.
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toomey
climber
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Jun 11, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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El Cap 1, Bluering 0
Got your ass handed to you, ya' paper tiger.
Nice post EC. Thnak for your service.
Bluering, thanks for considering serving.
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