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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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What's all this about Iraq? I was hoping to start a discussion about whether 9/11 was a "black ops" job.
Why did building 7 fall. In the 100 year history of steel framed high rise buildings none have ever fallen from fire, let alone small fire (except the three that all fell on 9/11). You'd think at the least the civil engineers would like to figure that out. But they weren't allowed to see the evidence. Hummmm?
then there is the question of why NORAD was sleeping the one day the US is attacked my multiple planes. I mean, we spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually to protect Washington DC (the nerve center of US military) from air attacks, and they, um, well we don't know what they were doing. Practicing terrorist oriented war games? ha Glad the Soviets didn't fly in with a nuke that day.
But the most important question is, why was the whole thing never investigated? Largest homicide in US history; Largest attack on US mainland in history. all whitewashed and evidence destroyed. Clearly someone is hiding something and I want to know who.
anyway, this has been declared (by someone??) to be the "week of truth".
see
http://weekoftruth.org/
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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Sure TIG, they and others were out there with their eyes pealed looking for the WMDs OR evidence of their existence. It's not THAT tough to find WMDs, paper trails, their chemical signs, manufacturing plants, or people who would've operated them, especially with the intelligence service/police/army supposedly in place to conceal their existence rendered ineffective after the invasion.
Your diamond ring analogies don't quite work here.
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John Moosie
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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", then why has it taken so long? and why didn't the msm pursue the issue? "
There are books and books about this. Most people didn't want to believe that their president would lie to them. Most folks are lazy and ill informed. It is all about power and the control of power. Our own weapons inspectors said there were no WMD's, for TIGs sake, they said they couldn't find any after looking for a number of years.
Then you have the pressure our leaders were putting on the CIA to suppress anything that said there wasn't any WMDs anymore, and push anything that made it look like Saddam was trying to get them. Remember the tubes they said were for nuclear use and weren't. Colin Powell lied about them and it has now been shown they knew at the time they were not of significant enough quality for that kind of use.
The story goes on and on.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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nb3000,
Exactly. And the oops factor does not make it more or less likely. It just means they screwed up.
Except for one thing. They might actually have existed. And that would have been a problem. Here we are today Monday morning quarterbacking.
That is not the position that we had 5 years ago. Five years ago, we had someone behaving as though he was trying to hide something (or we could interpret the actions that way.)
We executed regime change. Whether he had them or not, we could argue back then that regime change was a safer alternative than leaving him in with reasonable uncertainty as to the facts.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Damn straight we're monday morning quaterbacking!
We were lead into a bungled war based on deception and incompetence, a war that has cost thousands of lives, billions if not trillions of dollars, radicalized our enemies and sullied our reputation. The country needs to understand why.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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rockermike,
Why did building 7 fall. In the 100 year history of steel framed high rise buildings none have ever fallen from fire, let alone small fire (except the three that all fell on 9/11).
Pay attention!
I have explained the fallacy of your argument at least 3 different times in this thread!
Your argument is that there is some other explanation for the accident because such an accident never occurred before.
It is like a drunk saying that martians caused his crash because he has driven drunk 1000 times before without an accident.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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Bookworm
The New York Times. . .let's see, Judith Miller, check. Wonderful reporting, check. Booster for the war is more like it. Now Joseph Risen (sp?) did uncover the fact that shrub and his henchmen started bugging our phones illegally back in 2005 if I remember correctly. But the Times withheld that for a year on the advise of shrub et al. There's still a fight going on about that with the bill that shrub wants to give the telecoms immunity for illegally wiretapping you and how many others. I'm honestly not sure where the LA Times and Post were, but a lot of them were cheerleaders instead of asking hard questions about the WMD's etc, the fourth estate laid down and acted like lapdogs instead of watchdogs as they are supposed to be. Same thing with television news--all of them are controlled by the Rupert Murdochs and if it doesn't sell something to enrich them, don't bother. They've cut their staffs to the bone and no one is covering it except the alternative press.
Again, I'm not talking conspiracy about 9/11. I'm talking about Iraq, period.
The press laid down and died on it. Maybe you can explain to me
why they haven't asked hard questions, like the US, bound by international treaties such as being a signatory to the Geneva Convention, why haven't shrub and Cheney been indicted for war crimes because of their allowing of torture, expressly forbidden
by the Geneva Convention? Dennis Kucinich has attempted to bring impeachment proceedings against Cheney, but the the rest of the pussies in the house, all afraid of the republican lame ducks pull the bill.
They're going to pass another billion dollar war funding supplemental, in order to look good at home (they're for the troops) because if they just didn't let the supplemental to the floor, the war would come to a grinding halt. Oh, that's right,
shrub has threatened them with a governmental shutdown, think of all the wonks in the Pentagon that wouldn't get a paycheck.
But hell, let's cut back benefits for veterans wounded in Iraq, let's get them discharged by giving them fake diagnoses of personality disorders so they aren't treated for PTSD, which woul cost a ton of money.
I wish I could truthfully give you an answer why the msm doesn't cover this. I can't unfortunately. But it sure as hell isn't a conspiracy. The information is out there--there are still many in this country that think this is a 'just' war.
BullSh#t.
Like Thomas Jefferson said, and I paraphrase, sometimes a little revolution is good for a country. How about now?
Maybe you weren't here during the Vietnam War. I got gassed
protesting it, I was almost drafted to go there.
I lost friends in that war. The only reason I haven't lost friends in Iraq is that I'm in my 50's and I don't know anyone
that has been sent there. But my heart cries for those 4000+ families that have lost loved ones for shrub's power play, and for all of those that have come home without limbs, head injuries, and will suffer the effects for the remainder of their lives.
It's like Santayana said, 'if we don't learn from history, we're condemned to repeat it'.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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"http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1998_r/980210t-fr.htm Iraq WMD’s
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200602/SPE20060202a.html Syria has the WMD’s
http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php Syria has the WMD's "
LOL, Bluering, you're funny. I hope you didn't spend much time googling to find something. Thanks for looking though, seriously, I've wondered why people believe this. You cite:
-A 1998 article that says nothing about Syria receiving Iraqi weapons.
-A right-wing website with an axe to grind (just look at the stories). The General used as a source was Georges Sada. Of all of them, this seemed the most credible except the website is pretty suspect. But how credible is the General really? Before the war we put a lot of faith in several exiled Iraqis for intelligence or help; many or even most turned out to be rats.
-And a source that has an obvious anti-Syria pro-Lebanese bias using a journalist as a source who (for good reason) has an axe to grind with Syria and an interest in Syria getting its ass kicked by someone.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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"Five years ago, we had someone behaving as though he was trying to hide something (or we could interpret the actions that way.)"
Actually, "we" didn't interpret anything. Our government sold us those lies to further their own agenda.
What dirt said below your post as well. Wholeheartedly.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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moosie, i'm not talking about "most folks", i'm talking about the largest media organizations in the nation who salivate at just the thought of bringing down members of congress, let alone a president
your claim about the cia suppressing info ignores the key point originally made by stevew: that all the evidence was readily available to some intrepid "independent journalists" who had the inclination to ask for it
you also ignore the illogical claim that bush/cheney managed to orchestrate an international plot requiring the cooperation (willing or not) of thousands of people and costing the lives of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and honorable servicemen/women but they allow a few "independent journalists" to uncover their plot simply by asking for the evidence that would lead to their executions
ok, yes, i find it much more credible that saddam secretly transported a few thousand wmd-armed warheads through the desert to syria before the invasion
also, moosie, you and stevew have apparently read a lot of books...who's to say those books are true or factual? being well read does not make one smart...did you hear obama last night...he wants to raise the capital gains tax to pay for universal health care even though jfk, reagan, and w proved that cutting capital gains taxes leads to an INCREASE in government revenue and raising capital gains taxes leads to a DECREASE in government revenue...that evidence is available to all even without an FOIA request, but i'm sure obama considers himself "well-read"
and rockermike, i think popular mechanics did a bang up job explaining 9/11...and do you really mean 9/11 was a "small fire"?
and why would norad care about a few passenger planes that had returned to their starting point or seemingly diverted to another airport? if they worried about civilian flights, they'd never have time to watch for missile launches or military aircraft
seriously, you guys are so busy looking for "evidence" that you can't even see the facts
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:37pm PT
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"i think popular mechanics did a bang up job explaining 9/11...and do you really mean 9/11 was a "small fire"?--bookworm.
Popular Mechanics--hahahahahah, might as well have been Readers' Digest.
And the radio talk by the firemen to their commanders CONFIRMED that the fires were "small", and manageable with only two hoses.
Then the buildings fell from the fire, (watch the Brazil skyscraper burn for 20+ hours {the whole building} and remain standing), in less than 60 minutes
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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ok steve, the nyt ombudsman also admitted that it was a mistake to release the story on the wiretaps because "there is no evidence that any information gathered was used for any other reason than what the admin claimed" (I paraphrase)
the geneva convention protects "soldiers" in uniform and does not apply to "enemy combatants"...now we can debate whether or not the gitmo detainees should be treated as soldiers, but please stop with the geneva convention line--it doesn't apply
is waterboarding torture? even kucinich can't get the democratically controlled congress to pass a law defining it as torture...you can't convict anyone of breaking a law that doesn't exist
ending the war? that's a whole new debate...do you really think it would be our best interest (not to mention the best interest of the iraquis,the entire middle east, and the rest of the world) for us to pull out now?
are you against war completely? because that's a whole new debate
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:42pm PT
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ok mojede...what about the structural damage caused by a missile the size of a 737 crashing into the building and exploding? might that be just enough to weaken the supports on one floor, leading to a collapse that then, domino-like, sends the top 20 stories crashing onto the next floor, now 21 stories, now 22 stories...makes clear sense to me
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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Yes, the fires below the main impact site (you know, the first floors the firemen would come across) were not as large as the ones above. What's so shocking about that?
The Madrid building had a concrete core. The steel only portion collapsed completely to the concrete firewall floor, leaving the concrete core standing. And this building was not struck by a jetliner.
The WTC buildings did not have a concrete core or any concrete fire wall floors.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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"We were lead into a bungled war based on deception and incompetence, a war that has cost thousands of lives, billions if not trillions of dollars, radicalized our enemies and sullied our reputation."
Don't forget it has also divided the citizenry of this country.
If - and there's no evidence to suggest this ISN'T the case - a government wanted to get a count on their herd of sheeple, and maybe start sorting out the black sheep of the bunch....
...and IF they had some really nifty intertube scouring software that was designed specifically to sift through web pages, making note of words as have been bandied about in this thread(and zillions of others like it over the last several years), and if that software was able to also plug in a "for" and "against" those words - and there's NO evidence that it CANNOT do this....
Well, that's an interesting conundrum, now. Isn't it?
The corporate media was bought and paid for in the years before 911 occurred. Recall the issues of monopoly, especially surrounding the Clear Channel brand? These days, what stories get covered is a matter of bureaucratic meetings. You THINK that when someone like...say...Coors, is sponsoring a media outlets budget, that they don't get a few Veto votes out of the deal?
My tin foil hat is quite spiffy, and it's of my own design. I'd love to be wrong about what I am thinking, but the dots are starting to connect from my perspective. I've got a gut feeling that we'll see something pretty big happen in the next six months, if something big is going to happen. October 8, 2008 is the date that's stuck in my head.
But, if something big does happen in these six months, of the magnitude I fear, I would just like to have it on record right now that you Supertopians, even the ones I disagree with, are very dear to me. I am glad I know you all, internettedly and in some case, in reality.
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BenC
climber
Ithaca, Ny
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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bookworm,
I think the issue with the wiretapping is it violates everyones right protecting them from unreasonable search and siezure and established law i.e. FISA.
Beyond the Geneva convention if we as a country lose the moral high ground (which we have) how can we expect or even hope for help from the rest of the world as we obviously cannot fix the terrorism problem ourselves.
If waterboarding isn't torture what the hell is it?
Will ending the war make us safer? Does anyone honestly believe we as a country are safer after invading Iraq? We have already screwed the pooch waiting for puppies ain't going to help.
bookworm you berated someone for believing everything the read or for believing books critical of bush. My questions is where do you get your information, osmosis?
And finally I'm a an Iraq and Afghanistan vet, I did three tours the last ending in Aug of '06. If you believe so much in this war enlist, the army needs bodies, deploy then we'll talk about ending the war.
Rant off, thanks folks.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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bookworm, maybe in that PM article they forgot to mention the engineering behind the design for the towers to withstand a jumbo jet direct strike intact, damaged but intact.
The towers behaved as they were supposed to--until all that booming started to happen in the sub-levels of the buildings. But somehow, all of those eye/ear witness (firefighters included) reports were abandoned/suppressed by the media.
Foil hat--adjusted.
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nb3000
Social climber
Oakland, CA.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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In the 100 years of steel frame building construction, a passenger jet has never been flown into one either. But B7 wasn't directly hit? Okay but, it WAS next door. Fire may not have done it but there must have been some gnarly shock and vibration from the impact(s) and collapse of the towers. Wager B7 wasn't engineered for that. In a structure even as simple as a scaffold, if even one little pin is missing in the right (or wrong) place, the whole damn thing can come down.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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True, but that scaffold falls OVER, not directly/neatly into its own footprint.
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