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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 31, 2005 - 12:52pm PT
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goddamit I'm not asking for any of that. would you read what I wrote a little closer.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2005 - 01:06pm PT
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Someone said that it is OK for David and Lambone to be asking questions. Actually, I was asking questions about the decisions the Japanese team made regarding equipment, and honestly never thought that the actions of YOSAR needed our analysis. I won't say that is out of bounds, but I had not thought of it. I was looking for input from more experienced climbers (I have been climbing for 33 years, but have only done two big walls) regarding things like bivi bags, communications, ground contact party, etc.
Regarding climbing the Captain without a portaledge, doing that in June is one thing, doing that in late October is a very different decision tree. If you get hit with a storm in June, the likelihood that you will have cold rain or snow for more than a day is low. You need to be prepared for cold and for rain, but I doubt most of us are prepared for three days of snow. In October, however, you need to expect to have sub-freezing weather for a week straight and then some. You need to be prepared for cold rain one day that freezes all your ropes a day later. You need to be prepared with enough warm weather gear and waterproofing (portaledge with a fly that is not defective, bivi bag, synthetic bag) to last out days of inability to climb because of bad weather/frozen ropes. I think climbing El Cap in October without a portaledge, if you are not doing the climb in a day, is a very real risk.
How many think that both a portalege with fly and a bivi bag are necessary for El Cap or HD in June?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I agree with you David, but...I would do the Nose with no ledge any time of year. Although I'd probly try to get up it in three days, and rap if the weather got sketch.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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I have voiced my opion on this subject in regards to the party in question. "I feel that they made poor decisions" Why didn't they rap when shitt started to go bad? I mean you can be on the ground from anywhere on the nose in a matter of hours. I for one would not drag a ledge up the nose anytime of the year. But I would not spend any time in a storm anywhere on the route. Sunday morning waking up at camp 6 in the rain, I would be out of there headed for coffee in the lodge. Why didn't they rap?
Tommy T
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Southern Man
climber
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T2:
My guess is that they were pretty new to the Big Wall game (maybe fairly new event to climbing in general) and didn't know how easy it was to rap the route. Did they have two ropes to rap with? Was the rope that was cut with the haul bag attached a third (static) rope or only a second rope?
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Rap route?
I've thought about the same thing. But 20 plus raps, rain, sleet, wind. No rain gear. You get soaked to the bone. You don't know exactly where the rap route goes... One stuck rap rope and you're screwed.
In retrospect it seems obvious best choice but if I was there in that situation I'm not sure what decision I'd make. What do other people think?
As to hauling a ledge, I don't really see much advantage. But bomb proof shelter yes. (I've considered taking my double ledge fly but not the ledge itself. You certainly could get yourself good and covered up with a fly. Not comfortable but I would think fairly secure and dry-ish)
Another thought I've had; Chris Mac has a good intro to big wall weather in the intro to his big wall book, but its in English. (I'm not saying this in jest) Maybe it should be printed in Japanese also. Two weather related disasters on El Cap with Japanese climbers and I'll bet neither party could read the warnings. - anyway, just a thought.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Being on Camp 6 it would be a tough call wether to rap the route or just climb to the top in the rain, it's only 4 pitches. If you short-fixed it you could eliminat freezing at a belay for two long and be on top in a couple of hours.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Lambone:
I would have chosen neither - if the Nose was my first wall of that stature. I would have choosen to stay in Camp 6, in the hope of completing the route when conditions had improved, in one or two days hopefully. Without rain gear there would not be much of a choice anyways. Incidentally, I myself would never have ventured on to a wall of that size without rain gear, in addition to a bivi sack and sleeping gear.
If the weather did not improve sufficiently to move, I would stay put and await rescue. Keeping the running water and the cold away as best as possible.
The guru and sometimes boss of the Swedish High Mountain Rescue acted like this four years ago in Sweden and survived. After three nights at an exposed bivouac site in bad weather, he and his partner were too fatigued to continue. However, the first helicopter at the scene crashed when the rotor hit the wall and the crew (3) was killed. Probably pilot error, since the site was not that difficult to reach. The pilot had been awakened in the middle of the night, after one hour of sleep only.
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Southern Man
climber
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mellpat:
You must not have read much of this thread or followed the events of this tragety. They had rain gear, had bivy bags, had synthetic sleeping bags, had a stove, had a rain tarp.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I have spent alot of time aid climbing in the rain, snow and rain/snow up in the Washington Cascades. If you just keep moving and don't stop until you reach the top then it's not that bad. Of course if you are trying to climb through a waterfall then it gets bad pretty quickly.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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"I have spent alot of time aid climbing in the rain, snow and rain/snow up in the Washington Cascades. If you just keep moving and don't stop until you reach the top then it's not that bad. Of course if you are trying to climb through a waterfall then it gets bad pretty quickly"
I think that's the strategy that cost both the recently deceased Japanese team and the team that died on the summit bolt ladder 20 years ago their lives.
I don't know what caliber of a climber you'd have to be to negotiate the somewhat run out "5.5" from the bolts to the summit tree in that kind of weather?
I know that it's highly improbable I'd be able to onsight the East Ledges or find my way across the summit slabs to get onto the Falls Trail in a white out.
The rap route is very straightforward by comparisson. At a minimum, there are less runoff-exposed ledges a short distance below.
If I was not familiar enough with the area to realize that it can get so ugly on top, I might have chosen to go up too if I was so close to the summit.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"I think that's the strategy that cost both the recently deceased Japanese team and..."
Yeah, but they had been sitting on a ledge freezing for three days and were probly nearly hypothermic when they started climbing. They would have been better off blasting for it on Sunday, before it had even started snowing.
but whatever, hindsight is allways 20/20 right...
I don't think you can really call 25 rappels with a haulbag straightforward.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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No, you can't. I'm sorry, but if you're trying to rap from Camp 6 with a bag in a growing storm, you're f*#ked.
I'm not entirely sure it matters what condition you're in when you go for it--the right (or wrong, I guess) conditions can f*#k you over in no time. The two Japanese parties and Joe Crowe on Zodiac would be a few of many examples.
It's seems like a party needs to decide what they are. If they're fast and light they can't bring all that sh#t and they need to be competent enough to do the climbing in crappy conditions, and fast. Or retreat, also fast. And if they're prepared they better hole up and wait it out.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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I sure can and will call it "straightforward by comparison" (to belaying in a waterfall, freeing iced over slabs, and onsighting the East Ledges in a white out with the same pig and then some in tow).
FWIW, the Glowering Spot ledge is about two raps below, if memory serves. When we were up there in a much less severe rain storm, the Glowering Spot was actually staying dry while Camp 6 was flowing. Camp 5, one more pitch down, was bigger than the GS and getting run off, but not as bad as Camp 6. This storm may have been so much worse than the one I was in that all bets were off on some of the more protected places too. Nonetheless, rapping to a better spot, if one exists, doesn't necessarily mean heading to the the ground in a push. Supposedly the lower part of the route gets even less run off, although I have not seen this with my own eyes.
I'm writing this because when we were up there in the rain, we knew about others getting hosed on Camp 6 and chose to stay put for that reason (although the chances of things getting equivalently ugly for us in the middle of the summer were slim). I don't want to criticize the Japanese team (since I'll never know the details of their ordeal)...just offer up some beta for someone else considering the same route and get feedback from others who know the route better than I do. A lot of the routes on El Cap slab out at the top and therefore are ugliest near the summit. If bad weather is coming, perhaps, at least for the slower folks like myself, the safer choice is to wait it out a bit lower out of major watercourses if possible?
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Southern Man
climber
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As in so many tragic events, it isn't one single mistake or bad decision that ultimately leads to ruin. The Japanese duo were climbing slowly, had minimum bad weather gear, climbed during the time of year when multi-day pacific storms are not uncommon, didn't have much big wall experience, and didn't have a way of communicating with folks on the ground. I think yo makes a good point: the climbing party needs to decide their strategy for the accent and plan accordingly (light and fast OR slower and heavier). Our departed Japanese friends were fairly light and fairly slow, a bad combination when a pacific blast hits.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mellisa, I agree with you that rappeling a few pitches below Camp 6 out of the run-off would have been better then waiting it out at Camp 6. However I still argue that attempting to rappel the entire face in that storm would not have been any safer then going up over the top. At least on the top they could have found shelter and maybe even built a fire, at the very least be able to walk around and generate body heat. Plus who says you have to go down the East Ledges, ditch your haulbag and run down the Falls trail.
Assuming that they knew any of this is assuming too much. But if some poor bastard reads this an ends up getting stuck in a similar situation, at least they have thought about options, and that makes what we have written here worth something.
cheers
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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I think we're all basically saying the same thing ..
you need to have a plan .. and you need know what your options are.
Seems to me like the japanese team lacked both... and the means to get enough information to form a plan (if they had a radio they could have gotten the info that the storm was going to obliterate them) ..
.. if i thought my life was in danger .. and i was rapping 24+ pitches in a storm, i'm pretty sure i'd cut the pig loose and just let it fly to the bottom.
 ricardo
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Southern Man
climber
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as ricardo said, give the pig wings to fly. And I agree that the discussion should make all of us a little more aware of the obvious and not so obvious dangers/options.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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You cut the pig loose, get your ropes caught, and are forced to bivy without your gear. See ya.
It just goes round and round. You never know when acting smart will kill you.
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