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Jim Hewett
climber
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Jan 27, 2005 - 04:52am PT
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Wet Lycra Nightmare, 5.13d, A0
I don't read this forum often. I guess I was turned off by the negativity. A friend alerted me to this thread so I thought that I should at least make sure that you all have the facts.
Todd Skinner and/or I climbed every pitch of a new free route on Leaning Tower in November of 2004. The route goes free after the initial bolt ladder pitches, following the aid line of Wet Denim Daydream most of the way. Here is a brief description of the pitches off of Ahwahnee Ledge.
Pitch 1: This pitch climbs straight up from the ledge, avoiding the low quality 5.5 runout by climbing the face past four bolts to the start of the crux aid corner. The free line follows the corner for about 10 feet before it cuts left out on to the face and then right and straight up to a bolted belay at a large roof.
Pitch 2: This is the technical crux of the route, about 10 feet to the left of the aid line. It traverses right and then climbs left out a handrail in the roof for eight feet or so to a tough move at the lip. Once over the lip, the line climbs up and then right to rejoin the aid route and end about ten feet right of the bolted belay of the first aid pitch.
Pitch 3: This pitch follows the aid line to the next bolted belay.
Pitch 4: This pitch also follows the aid line to the next bolted belay.
Pitch 5: This pitch climbs the dreaded "shipwreck flake" and continues past the bolts at the ledge above the flake to end at the bolted belay just under the big roof at the top.
Pitch 6: This pitch does not climb the Wet Denim roof finish, but climbs left out a finger crack to a bomb bay chimney. After following the chimney crack further out the roof, the lip is pulled and a short slab section leads to a bolted belay 6 feet from the top.
This is the most coninually steep multipitch climb that I or Todd have ever seen, on predominately good quality rock with features you don't get on other formations in Yosemite. We figure all but one pitch to be 5.13.
Our ethics on this route were to create a quality climb that could be onsighted safely enough by a competent 5.13 trad leader. Natural protection was used wherever it affords actual protection for freeclimbing falls. This doesn't include the smallest of heads in blownout placements. 15 bolts were placed for lead protection throughout the route, mostly on pitches that diverged from the aid line. There are three bolts reachable from the beginning of the corner off of Awahnee Ledge and two bolts on the aid line on Pitch 4 as described above.
We feel that we have established a wonderful free route that will gain popularity as freeclimbing standards enevitably rise.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2005 - 10:19am PT
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Thanks for the info, should at least help cut down on the speculation
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jan 27, 2005 - 10:43am PT
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re."We feel that we have established a wonderful free route that will gain popularity as freeclimbing standards enevitably rise."
That may very well be true. However, it does beg the question... Do you feel that in the process of creating your route you have forever altered an already established and popular line? Seems like that is what people are curious about.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
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JH,
Thanks for being forthcoming with your information and congrats on your impressive free climb (or I guess I should say the pitches that you did free). I apologize If I was overly negative earlier in this thread.
My opinion stands though, I don't agree with the philosophy that it's ok to add bolts to any existing line just to make it safer or reduce the length of a fall, free climbing or aid climbing. Regardless of how many or how few bolts were added I still think it's bad form. The purest form of free climbing existing aid lines is doing them as is, if it's nescesary to add more bolts then maybe the climb should remain and aid route until someone stronger and more bold is up for the challange.
just my 2 cents from the armchair.
cheers
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:07pm PT
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Jim H.,
P.S.
Also, please refrain from littering our walls with your illegal and unsightly fixed ropes while working your projects in the future. Beware that if I happen to run into them again they will be properly removed and disposed of, but I am sure you are aware that those are the risks taken when abandoning equipment on a popular big wall.
Thank you,
Matt
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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Sure. Like aid FAs never leave fixed ropes.
Also, I'm not sure if it's reasonable to ask a freeclimber to risk the same fall as someone who's standing in aiders, resting on a piece.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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"Sure. Like aid FAs never leave fixed ropes."
I didn't say they didn't...but I climb mostly trade routes, so I'm not competing for space with first ascensionists. And climbing up routes strung up with fixed ropes is not much fun. WDD is almost as popular as the West Face these days. People, and to me that includes all big wall free climbers shouldn't get special privilages to clutter popular routes with their junk.
Maybe this opinion seems rash to some, but almost everyone I have ever talked to who was dissapointed by fixed lines on their planned objective has felt the same way.
As far as not risking long falls, tell that to the Hubers, Caldwell and Houlding who have done bold free climbing on walls without altering the origional route.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:56pm PT
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"Also, I'm not sure if it's reasonable to ask a freeclimber to risk the same fall as someone who's standing in aiders, resting on a piece."
Is it reasonable to ask them to not try to free aid lines then if doing so alters the experience for the 'other' 99% of us that enjoy it from aiders or for the superhuman that has yet to come along with so much skill acting as their pro that they don't wish for more?
There was a time when freeing El Cap was on the cusp of what was imaginable, so it may have been more appropriate for the pioneers to be a bit more 'anything goes' about it back then. However, there are now a few bolted 'free' variations that don't even go free within a few feet of the original lines, and also plenty of examples of people who climbed hard on the existing protection opportunities or lackthereof.
Leaving fixed lines on an otherwise committing aid line that lots of people work hard and travel great distances to attempt vs. leaving fixed lines on a true FA that is not in anyone's way are two totally different things.
Some of the free walls (or wish-they-were-free walls) get fixed for months...and not just for FFAs. Riding the fixed lines on the more 'accessible' El Cap and Half Dome routes seems to be the new Porch Swing.
The fixed lines on aid climbs seem to mostly be just the bottom pitches, and they tend to disappear when the party blasts off. Chongo's famous sail on the Seas aside, I don't personally know of anyone who spent a whole season or more working on an existing aid route?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 27, 2005 - 09:23pm PT
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What is this nonsense about a low rated climb being low quality?
A friend did a 5.6/7 FA last weekend that is just an outstanding climb, even if all the holds are big.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:17am PT
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I've found it disappointing when ropes are fixed way up climbs for months. I showed up at the base of Half Dome once to do the Direct. Skinner had ropes fixed for 1400 feet up on it. He was there with Nancy Fegin and Galen Rowell. They were cool, and would have let us pass, but I just didn't feel like climbing next to 1400 of rope hanging next to us and at the belays.
Fortunately, the regular route was empty by some fluke so we went for that in a day instead. Todd was on the exact same moves that he had worked for hours the previous day when we came down the next morning after a bivy on top.
(side note: I couldn't believe the guy carried a hang board up to the base of Half Dome, hung it on the wall at the base, and used it to work out when he wasn't cranking.)
Started up the Muir once when Scotty Burke had his ropes fixed for 5 pitches and a fixed ledge on the wall, and then Caldwell had his ropes higher up on the route. Passing Scott's ledge and messup up bivy site was a pain.
Oh well, I try to live and let live, but if this major working of walls got even more popular, I'd say enough is enough. If the trade routes regularly had fixed ropes most of the way up them, it would suck greatly. It's a judgement call I suppose. I don't mind the fixed ropes to Heart and would be bummed if they were removed.
As for adding bolts to aid routes. I'd be discouraging toward it but I think "It Depends" and in reality, how the community tolerates such things tends to center around the players as well as the acts.
Caldwell, who I like and is inspirational and amazing, has a long record of relying on other people's equiping of free walls. Schnieder for Lurking Fear, Smith and Cosgrove for Muir, Skinnner for Dihedral, and so on. So I can't call him bold or overbolting, cause he's doing what I would do, let others do the dirty work.
I don't know who bolted the changing corners pitch on the Nose, but I can tell you that many of those bolts are within reach of the route cause I took a stupid fall on one once when a brass nut worked it's way out after I'd been standing on it awhile. Nobody seems to mind, but in my mind, it's as bad as many of the examples stated here, maybe worse cause it's on the Nose. On the other hand, that pitch looks pretty thin and hard. On the other hand, you can fall a long way down that pitch and not get hurt cause I did so. My partner had somehow feed tons of slack out so when I fell, I went 25 feet instead of less than 10.
Doing the Salathe Headwall in the dark once, we got sidetracked on Skinner's free variation and missed Long Ledge. Had a miserable night on a non-ledge with another party hanging various body parts in slings through the night until we couldn't feel our arms or legs anymore and so then changed positions.
But let me tell you, I don't have any answers. People do things and sometimes the community buys it, and sometimes they don't. There are no strict rules and even if there are, some folks seem be be able to break them with impunity.
What should we do? Just what we're doing, Attempting to create dialog and consensus, and, inevitably failing at that, dealing with individual events imperfectly as they happen.
Peace
Karl
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jan 28, 2005 - 11:51am PT
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re: wet lycra nightmare... maybe its been hashed out thoroughly before, but can a route name be changed just because a route is climbed free, or in this case partially free (5.13 A0). Seems like Skinner et al could name the variation (where route diverges) but not the entire line which shares pitches... Shameless posing and posturing for the sponsors and mags???
Also, sparingly placing a bolt to free an aid climb which is a C1 trade route does not seem as out of line as placing the same bolt on an established testpiece, to free it, which significantly lowers the aid rating (fall potential).
flame away...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:02pm PT
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I find it funny that Jim Hewett now ignores us and lurks safely from a distance. You know he is reading...
If he had a backbone he'd come out of the closet and try to defend what he did or at least explain the thought process. But I suppose we shouldn't be suprised that he is afraid...considering the context of the conversation.
If he could bolt this web page to allow for safe passage I'm sure he would.
I have made my points pretty clearly, until someone from the other side speaks up...this is just me preaching to the choir.
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
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What about added anchor bolts??? Seems like all the aid climbers don't bitch about big bolts getting added to anchors. If one is gonna argue that new lead bolts are wrong... I hope they are ready to argue that added anchor bolts are just as wrong.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:20pm PT
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re."Seems like all the aid climbers don't bitch about big bolts getting added to anchors."
Where ya been? People on this site complain about it all the time. There's been plenty of bitchin on that very subject.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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anchor bolts are the lesser of two evils in my mind, but three good bolts should be the maximum.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:44pm PT
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Lambone
“If he had a backbone he'd come out of the closet and try to defend…”
WTF are you talking about? Hewett already explained his thought process in his original thread. He has no obligation to answer to the likes of you.
“But I suppose we shouldn't be suprised that he is afraid….”
Afraid of what….you? The context of the conversation? You’re dreaming man. They did their thing good or bad, Dude. Now the ball’s in your court. Go fix it if you want.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:48pm PT
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Personally, I like to haul a barcolounger up with me to eliminate those painful hanging belays when working new free variations to existing routes. I don't know what kind of gumbies you guys are but everyone that's anyone knows it takes at least six bomber 1/2" bolts to securely mount a barcolounger to the wall.
Oh yeah, those guys that insist on taking their generators, microwave ovens, and refrigerators full of TV dinners up are pansies.
My2¢
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:59pm PT
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David, i read this site regularly and I hardly ever see people saying they want to see anchor bolts chopped on big walls.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Werner,
In my eyes he didn't explain anything. He said that he put bolts in on the route to protect falls, but that's it.
Did they ask the first ascensionist if this was ok?
Did they ask the local community if anyone would mind?
Did they consider some people might not agree?
Did they consider the impact of leaving fixed ropes up on the route?
I want to know what drives the decision to ignore the rest of the climbing community and do what ever you want to a route at your own liking.
To me it just seems like a disregard for a style of climbing that many enjoy.
Afraid of me...of course not. The dude climbes 5.13 or whatever, obviously way tougher then me. I was thinking more along the lines of being afraid of public scrutiny.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:22pm PT
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Lambone
“I want to know what drives the decision to ignore the rest of the climbing community and do what ever you want to a route at your own liking.”
Did Ray Jardine ask the community if it’s ok to do what he did? Harding? Or the multitude of other individuals. There’s no written law saying you have to ask for anything. Where do you guys get it in your heads that there is?
Some respect the succession…some will take it to different levels…
Some may take to what Karl said in his above post.
Walt Shipley summed it up long time ago. That the first ascent party has free reign to do whatever they want….even if it’s insane. Does that mean they now own the thing? Your dreaming. Some will respect that and others will too, but they also believe they too have
the same rights the first ascent party had.
Disregard? Yep Columbus disregarded the community….
And that’s what drives them however one sees it.
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