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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:02pm PT
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I'm not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places.
But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done.
Leave the big walls alone. If the south face of Half Dome can't be climbed ground up then don't bother. Leave it.
If Half Dome can't be be climbed from the ground up for a hundred years then so be it. Leave it alone.
If the South face of Half Dome has only 4 routes to the top and they are all horrendous death routes, then so be it. Respect!
Respect. Climbing is not suburbia, although that's where the modern trend is going.
I've always wanted to free climb the south face of Half Dome, but I never thought I was good enough, so I walked on past and respected that great masterpiece standing there.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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Tar,
Reminds me of the time I was in wales climbing Left Wall and Cenotaph with a friend when up walked Wolfgang Gullich to climb "Lord of the Flies". I watched as he quickly moved up this crimpfest until about ten feet from the top where he started fidgeting with a small nut to protect the last moves. He couldn't get anything in and then starts jabbering in German to a friend on the ledge below to get him the appropriate nut and climb to the top and lower it down. Gullich hung on nothing for a good ten minutes until his buddy got to the top and lowered down the appropriate micro nut. He then placed it and powered to the top. A brit climbing next to us said, "Bloody ell.....he didn't free it !!" Talking about absurd !!
Cracko
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Werner,
Don't want my post above to be construed as support for this new route, just commenting on how absurd our style/ethics debates can get. I agree with you and will continue walking past 90% of the lines I see knowing there's no chance !!!
Cracko
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Before I get all worked up about this I would like to hear from Doug Robinson and anybody else who has actually climbed this aleged autrocity. Then again, it is Sunday so feel free to continue with the sermons.
Ha ha! Nice one, more of these people do need to just head outside.
When I first read that artical it just didn't seem quite right. Not trying to be judgmental here, I mean, it's the original "Cleanmeister Doug Friggan Robinson" up there and he's loudly and proudly tooting this new routes horn.....hmmm. Surprised some of you are not yanking about the bolt placed next to the crack picture either.
I too was wondering if a ground up line of bat-hook holes and various pin scars which the next 5000 climbers could have beat out really would have been better. I know they would not have been. I'm not passing judgment as much as watching what appears to be the inevitable change coming. Like what Ron said, as I suspect this will allow others the mental ability to now say " Hey, if Doug and those guys can preinspect and rap bolt over there...then it's fine over here for me".
Now, I got to go as it warming up finally, I'm heading out myself for a little rapping and cleaning effort. Don't think it needs bolts though.
Take care all!
Bill
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:23pm PT
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"Old School" means style dictated by respect..for the stone, the environment, the people.
"New School" means safety achieved at all costs.
"Old School" is concerned with the Way.
"New School" is concerned with the Goal.
"Old School" IS a school of thought, a way of living.
"New School" IS a sport.
"Old School" will keep you honest.
"New School" will make you arrogant.
There is no Right and Wrong. There is only Choice.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Bp...it's obvious you were not around when old school was old school.
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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bob d'antonio, may i ask which part makes you think i was not around when old school was old school?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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how the times have changed!
it is almost 14 years ago when the Coz, Eppi and i got busted on top of the Muir wall. the slaggin that we got went on for quite a while for drilling with power tools to replace manky bolts and add a few on our variations and not add bolts to the original line...what most people never recognized was the fact that we had never done the muir (never previewed pitches) and wanted to do it in the style of old school yos big walls. From the bottom to the top...and gain an adventure and show the wall the respect it deserves.
It is a sad day when the valley becomes the same as any other sport crag. When big walls go free and the aid routes lose the flavor of adventure with the many bolts added. When you can climb 1/2 dome with a rack of draws and a few cams, the SOUL of the ADVENTURE is gone! Climbing has never been a SPORT to me, but an adventure with flavor that i wish to taste every time i climb!
But, everyone has their right to express their vision and craft what they seem as the proper path. I am not perfect and have made many mistakes in my climbing life, so it is hard to express too much outrage, but it is much easier to express disappointment with the vision of todays climbers...
is it asking too much to keep a few walls left to adventure and keep the sport climbing to the crags in a place like the valley that is steeped in history and adventure?
Where i live now in the SE, when this type of route is done on North Carolina big walls, it is immediately chopped, patched and the authors strongly chastised in the community. Out west they get the cover shot and the sponsorships and slide shows..
ks
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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Wow, I'm shocked and surprised to read the posts before me:
The Kid: "Climbing has never been a SPORT to me, but an adventure with flavor that i wish to taste every time i climb!"
Is that the same kid who established 5.13+ sport routes in Rifle and put El Portrero Chico on the map?
Werner: " I'm not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places. But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done. Leave the big walls alone."
Wait, let me get this straight: you're not against sport climbing, but then again you are. Okay...
And then there's Ken: "To me, this is pretty evocative of the whole "Robbin's-Dawn Wall controversy", where Royal prejudged a route based on his perceptions of what "should" exist in that location based on tradition. Many of the folks who railed against sport climbing, hangdogging, and the rest have gone on to do plenty of it."
Thank god somebody around here seems to speak with a consistent voice! I think Ken has put a spike through the heart of the issue: if you're so aroused by the notion of this route, why don't you go up and judge for your phuckin' self. Put down the gossip rags and climb. Afterwards, if you still hate it, then lets have it out. But I'd venture to guess there's still about 10 acres of granite on that face that offer plenty of adventure.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
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BP...because your little blip is more romantic than truth.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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I hear a lot of "assumption" coming from the self-tagged "old-school", and you all know what happens when you make an assumption. Let's all just take a deep breath here.
Somehow, in about 50 posts, the climb (of which no one but four people have any first hand knowledge) has gone from a half trad, half bolted face route, to a sport route, to a via ferrata, and finally, to a bolted crack.
Wow.
Bottom line- until YOU have done the route, it is all just conjecture. I would advise all to exercise some constraint.
It is not a "grid-bolted "sport" route. That is laughable, and it makes you sound ignorant. It pains me seeing people in our small community slinging mud, especially when we all have things other people can take offense at.
One of Royals biggest regrets was getting worked up into a froth over shield-rattling hot air on the ground, only to find a challenging, hard and beautiful route once there was some air under his heels on the dawn wall. We can all learn from his mistake of rushing to judgement.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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i find adventure every day that i go climbing and do it for adventure and not for sport. even when i am bolting lines in rifle and mexico. it's about the line, the style and adventure that comes with it. 90% of the lines i bolted in rifle were ground up as were about 80% of what i bolted in mexico. Sport is the by product of those adventures in my eyes..
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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Kurt wrote: Where i live now in the SE, when this type of route is done on North Carolina big walls, it is immediately chopped, patched and the authors strongly chastised in the community. Out west they get the cover shot and the sponsorships and slide shows..
Kurt....just because you did something a certain way doesn't make it right or wrong.
A lot of assumptions going on in this thread...the truth is more than likely no were near what some people are saying.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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WB said, "But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done. "
Gotta agree with him on that one...
Southern Belle had a first "ascent"...
A rap bolted route never does - it's always gonna be an invisible top rope...
Just my opinion, jb
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martygarrison
Trad climber
atlanta
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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how classic would the NA wall have been if Royal rapped from the top to finish it, because it might be too dangerous. geeze come on folks this is a travesty.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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Doug Robinson isn't some kinda bad boy (like Harding) is he?
Sean Jones is a Yosemite local who knows the place.
Perhaps we should be asking more questions in the beginning and making less sweeping statements.
It's true Kurt and Coz got way more slagging at Muir time than they warranted.
Why is the climbing community so ready to think the worst of people, even those we "previously" knew and respected.
I'm sure we'll get more of the other side of the story soon.
Half Dome is a more pristine area of Yosemite but most of the routes on the face went up with plenty of aid, nailing, and bolting, and when you look at the pioneer route on the South Face, it was called into ethical question at the time too: bat hook ladders up blank stone. (that's better than freeing it with rap bolts?)
At least this one is free
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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"how classic would the NA wall have been if Royal rapped from the top to finish it, because it might be too dangerous. geeze come on folks this is a travesty."
Would have been pretty revolutionary if he had freed the route at the time.
All this goes way back. How many days did Harding spend sieging the Nose? Routes like the Nose don't need the top down inspection cause you can see the cracks from the base (and you can bet it was inspected that way) Slabs are too subtle for that.
Two sides to every coin. We may look bad at all the hammering we've done in Yosemite as the real long term damage done to the stone.
Peace
Karl
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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the NA would still be classic, but a lot less pin scarred...don't you agree?
Ever hear about Gandhi, kids, and sugar?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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"Does anybody have the routefinding skill to see, without previewing, if a section of slab would be 5.13 or impossible?"
Let me re-write this statement just a tad:
"Does anybody have the route-finding skill to see, without previewing, if a section of rock would be A4 or A5?"
Sure! It's been done countless times on El Cap and Half Dome. No need for Bridwell et al to rap down the PO to know it would be intricate and hard from the ground up. He just did it. The various routes on the Porcelain Wall are less than obvious from the ground but no one felt it necessary to rap them first.
Some might argue that you cannot compare doing hard aid on the FA lead with hard free on the FA lead. Crap! They are both an exploration of the unknown; just with different techniques.
Someone once wrote these words:
"Besides leaving alone what one cannot climb in good style, there are some practical corollaries of boldness in climbing. Learning to climb down is valuable for retreating from a clean and bold place that gets too airy. And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style--a thing well begun is never lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems."
And I still say something smells a bit off here... There is a picture in the article of the South Face clearly showing the Harding/Rowell arch (like you could ever miss it) with the caption, "The new Route 'Growing Up' (Vi 5.13a a0) takes the prominent left-leaning arch, then bangs straight up the bald face for some 1,000 feet..." That reads like a Cliff Notes topo for the South Face route.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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I think I get what u say klaus; but here's something to ponder...how many people climb as well as you do (even off the couch).
but yall know me; more harding than rr. Remember who said "It was a route...worth bolting for..." anyhooz. A famous VC...
(Courtesy Raydog iirc)
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