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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Darrell,
> Topo correction: Pitch 13 now has only 10 bolts on it, instead of 13. This is due to all of the replacement bolts being put where they can be clipped from natural stances, as opposed to following the original aid bolts.
Cool - thanks for explaining about the cleanup on p13; I added a note on the topo. I'm sure other climbers will appreciate not having to aid up the ladder to be able to clip the bolts, like on the FA. I think this needs to be treated as a new (helpful) variation, though. The second paragraph on p.46 of Bruce's AAJ article notes carefully that the FA team split after a controversy on that pitch - Cantwell wanted to go straight up a harder/contrived "line of strength", while Austin wanted to take a more natural line of least resistance to the right. So if the new bolts are off to the right, that matches up with this dispute. It could also explain the downrating from 5.13 on the FA to 5.12b via the new variation. [Edit: see Darrell's further explanation below - not a variation, just different heights for the bolts so they are more reachable from footholds.]
Here's the paragraph from the 1982 AAJ:
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However, when Austin accompanied Cantwell up the fixed lines to
this new high point, there was disagreement. Austin believed that following
a ramp a few feet to the right would have eliminated the need
for a ladder. Drilling could have been accomplished from all-natural
stances, Austin argued. But in order to make the line harder for the
sake of difficulty as an end in itself, Cantwell had refused to compromise
with the natural rock environment and, instead, had deliberately
chosen to construct a pre-placed "free ladder" up what he referred to as
the "line of strength." Feeling such tactics were unconscionable, Austin
elected to drop out. Still, Cantwell persevered. After freeing the 13th,
at a tentative 5.13 standard, he went on to add two more hard pitches
before intercepting the Coonyard to Rim route. On this final push, in
September 1980, Scott Burk was his partner.
---------
I suppose having a disgruntled ex-partner may have also stirred up negative feelings from other sympathetic resident climbers.
Karl,
Roger and I will be up there this summer, using your beta on approaching via just above Goodrich. We'll clean up those bolts and belay/rappel anchors on the first 7 pitches.
Matt,
> I emailed my buddy re: His ascent of Hall of Mirrors - I'll post anything I hear.
Sounds interesting! I'll definitely stay tuned....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Clint
Thanks to you and Roger for the public service. Wait until at least mid-summer cause there will be will be water flowing down the route in the spring into early summer depending on what kind of winter we have.
BTW, the two pitches above Goodrich link barely with a 60 meter rope. Use a cordalette to use the belay anchor on the first pitch for pro to avoid rope drag.
Peace
Karl
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Karl - Sorry, it seemed your comment regarding the old bolts was directed at the entire route and I was simply trying to make it clear that bolts have been replaced. Perhaps I didn't need to quote you to make the point. I'll take your word regarding the condition of the lower pitches, as I really don't remember what existing bolts we did or did not replace while we were establishing the variation.
Clint - Yes, the line of strength vs weakness debate was with regard to p13. No, the bolts JW placed were not on the right hand line of weakness. His bolts follow the *original* Cantwell & Burke line. He simply rearranged their locations so they can be clipped from free stances, without resorting to aid just to clip bolts drilled on aid. JW has stated that there were edges the bolts could have been drilled free from, but instead aid bolts were drilled, for whatever the reason. While correcting that problem, the bolt count was reduced from 13 to 10. But it is the same line of strength that the FA party took. It is interesting/ironic that pitch 13 - the line of strength - is per JW possibly the best face pitch he has done.
Regarding the rating differences of the upper pitches, I discussed that very subject with JW earlier today. Perhaps tomorrow something will get posted relative to that.
Yeah, fix those lower pitches! Cool.
Too bad people don't do that climbing much anymore. Good stuff.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Darrell,
Thanks for the additional explanation on rebolting p13. It's cool that the "line of strength" was such good climbing (as Chris had no doubt hoped)!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio)
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If Roger and Clint restore the bolts on the lower 7 pitches, I will be forced to go and check HOM out. It's been highlighted in my book since I was a teen. "What the heck is this HUGE, HARD route with three stars?!? I've never EVER seen mention of it." About a year later the Climbing Mag Article appeared and HOM went into my climbs of myth.
I figure you can go "warm up" on the Roger/Clint work from last summer over near the Arches, then start the game on the Apron.
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Jul 24, 2008 - 07:20pm PT
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I know what really happened. should I set the record straight? why the hangerless bolts, the overrating, the controversy, the bazar behavior. Part of me would like to leave things as they, are a mystery. Vote your opinion
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jul 24, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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Inquiring minds need to know...
yes, please.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 24, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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mythical vote
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Jul 24, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
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Ghostfromthepast,
Is that you, Chris? How are you?
Ken
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Jul 25, 2008 - 09:00am PT
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Bump
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 25, 2008 - 10:28am PT
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The truth will not set it free......until the next party came along.
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Jul 25, 2008 - 07:08pm PT
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there will be blood !
I am remembering why I don't post on forums anymore. I always get in a big fight with someone. Maybe we should alert the web master as precaution. The last time was on the AWANA site. A program for teaching the bible to kids, this seems a lot more volatile than " is page 52 meant to be a individual or group activity"
The years have been kind to me and people here are saying such nice things about me, if I shut up and don't say anything nasty will I be a saint in another 28 years?
CC
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 25, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
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If there is one thing I've learned on the net from a variety of forums related to my many hobbies/interests, it's stay well away from the religious forums.
As a youngster who loves to hear stories about back in the day climbs, another vote for please do tell.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 25, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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We need more pics of this route...anybody???
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Jul 25, 2008 - 08:24pm PT
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Hey Chris - posts like the one you are about to write out are getting pretty few and far between on this Board. But they are the magic ones. Get going and forget all the noise.
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:01pm PT
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the hangerless bolts;
1. they never had hangers thus none were removed.
2. there was a bad batch of hangers going around at the time that had made some climbs unsafe.
3. these were taper bolts, a new discovery to climbers at the time, they came with a 3/4" washer behind the nut.
4. we used wired stoppers behind the washers and they were quite secure. thus the wired stoppers on the origional gear list, though there is only one placement on the route a #2 friend kind of off route and unnecessary, 3rd pitch I think.
5. 1980 was before the sport climbing days and it was, I think, reasonable to assume that any slab climber would bring a long a number of these.
What we didn't know but eventually discovered;
1. snow and ice had a tendency to remove the washer and nut from the studs.
2. climbers found this "very annoying" perhaps "very very annoying"
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:04pm PT
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Hey, I remember when that thing was going up. I was right out of high school. Yep, there was the usual slander going on, but if you walk by a group of five climbers, you will probably get slandered anyway. I thought it was cool when Woodward repeated it and cleared the air.
Now, I didn't know you guys, but didn't Bruce M wear neck ties as headbands? He seemed to be wearing one whenever I saw him.
And I heard the wild stories, or myths, or whatever, about squirting lighter fluid on Contacts.
I really liked the Apron. You can go there and knock off a bunch of really fun stuff without your arms going to putty.
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:42pm PT
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The overrating;
or should I say over and underrating. I originally rated the ninth traverse 12b Woodward rerrated it 12c, in Hubers book it is rated 12d, now I hear on this forum a rating of 13a. can I buy some of this stock, looks like a solid uptrend to me.
the mysterious part, why the last two pitches went from 13 to 11:
The Contacts shoes really did make a huge difference, it felt like a full grade, thus the ninth felt like 11+ was really 12+. The last two pitches felt like 12 thus I rated them 13 . In reality the steeper upper pitches required edging more that smearing. The contacts performed more like a grade lower on this steeper rock. thus the 11 felt like 12 which we rated 13. We also underestimated the toll five days on the rock was taking us.
on the whole rating thing, I did despise deliberate underrating. rating a face climb 5.13 when there was still an active debate over whether 5.12 face climbing was possible was an outrageous action intended to provoke a response. I did not want Hall of Mirrors to be ignored. I wanted to get someone to do a second ascent and many were itching to prove that idiot Cantwell wrong. What I had not anticipated was how long that would take. I had worked for three years on the route and thought it to be possibly the hardest free wall in the world, but assumed that once repeated it would be rerated 5.11d like every other 5.12 face climb I had put up in Yosemite. When Jonny Woodward called me and said he thought the route to be 12c I was kind of blown away.
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Jul 26, 2008 - 01:25am PT
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ethics and the Star Trek syndrome.
" to boldly go where no man has gone before" I grew up with that idea, climbing was a way to do it. I was addicted to the sharp end of the rope and loved the adventure of breaking new ground. The ethics of the day said that all bolts be placed on lead from stances. More than two or three bolts per pitch was frowned upon. When I put up the well protected climbs on the lower Apron the most common objection was the number of bolts since the method of placement was within this ethical frame work. These routes were extremely popular and started what I saw as a class warfare between the elite climbers of the day and the rest of us. You did not have to risk your life to do a face climb and the flood gates were open. all of the sudden you had these geeks doing 5.11 face climbs.
the confession part:
It,s all a bit hazy and 28 years ago. years of rationalization,anger, denial, guilt and self-loathing but this is the best of my recollection
I see the words bolt ladder and I cringe, I never set out to drill a bolt ladder and have a hard time admitting that there are two on HOM. I started out drilling on stances until the 13th headwall, a long continuos slab with no drill stances for sixty to eighty feet, so I went up to where my feet were at the last bolt drilled on a stance I,ll place one here, I start drilling and the foot just kind of slides over to the bolt maybe I could stand here and drill from the smears but the bolt sure is easier to stand on. The next bolt I go to the foot on the bolt sooner... what the heck I turn it over to Scott Burke and he drills some more until we are within 20 to 30 feet of a real drill stance. The rules we did follow were that forward progress be made free and bolts were to be clipable. That the second ascent found them not to be so is puzzling, perhaps because we smeared and they edged ? Why did I not pull the rope through and relead? I certainly in hindsight should have, I knew the ethical implications but was so focused on the lead ,the new ground to be broken that I did not. I knew I could have relead it and did not need to prove this to myself. unfortunately others did need me to prove it to them. I did owe this to the climbing community and was not as forthcoming about these facts as I should have been.
Others did not follow my logic that if you could lead a section of face and then stand take both hands off the rock and drill for 45 minutes lower off and rest then reclimb toproped to your high point and take off into the unknown again that you could easily have climbed the pitch straight through with the bolts in place.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 26, 2008 - 02:07am PT
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kewl bit of insights from the way back machine
interesting that this below quote hasn't caught on as fully acceptable... FA vs. FFA?
in some instances this is actually harder...
"Others did not follow my logic that if you could lead a section of face and then stand take both hands off the rock and drill for 45 minutes lower off and rest then reclimb toproped to your high point and take off into the unknown again that you could easily have climbed the pitch straight through with the bolts in place."
but in others, it is easier.
anyone else have stories of doing their routes where the drilling was the harder part, rather than an anticlimatic lead thru? I've had that experience on a moderate face route, nothing hard like HOM, but the sensation of just being able to make upward progress against the odds, is more enticing than climbing thru. not having been there before is the key element.
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