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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 11, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Gullich's Sportklettern heute was never translated and is now out of print. Udo Neumann's Lizenz zum Klettern is almost directly descended from that book, however, and has more recent work in it. The older book he did with Dale Goddard, Performance Rock Climbing, was heavily based on Wolfie's book, although the sections it left out were probably the most relevant for this thread. Neumann's site is really good:
http://www.udini.de
I have watched folks in Austria use a system wall for "power" training and strength training as well as "power-endurance." (These labels all seem pretty squishy.) The ones I've seen allow the user to target weakness-- i.e., long reaches off slopers or monos or whatever --in both static and dynamic ways. The standard "train my lock-offs for the next sport comp" sequence is not the only application.
Things that have pretty clearly changed since the 1960s:
1. Most folks now seem to be recommending more sport specific training, i.e., only working to isolate particular muscle groups at occasional times in the training cycle and only then if there is a clear need to target an unusual weakness. We, on the other hand, learned that the best way to train was to try to isolate individual muscles.
2. Volumes tend to be higher than they used to be, and loads lighter. Or rather, fewer folks really advocate training to failure at regular intervals. (There are exceptions, but that seems to be the trend.)
3. Movement analysis is much more sophisticated, especially for climbing. The bibliography in the Self-Coached Climber is already a bit out of date, but you can follow that literature and it's really a dramatic change from what we used to draw upon. When I began coaching gymnastics, around 1981 or so, there was only one text that actually had a serious kinesiological approach to the sport.
4. We have way more climbing specific injuries now, especially of fingers. Pulley injuries have now replaced medial epicondylitis (which probably was exacerbated by our old habit of doing two-arm finger tip pull-ups on a single plane) as the injury of choice. Austria has been the most proactive in developing a really advanced sports medicine, pt, and training agenda for elite climbing, and the literature is getting a lot better. The latest worry-- a generation of overly-tight shoes is producing bunions in middle-aged climbers! Some of that lit is available in English in Hochholzer and Schoeffl's One Move Too Many.
5. Despite all the changes and new knowledge, we see elite level results from wildly different approaches to training. Sharma seems to do nothing but smoke dope and climb whatever he wants whenever he wants to climb it.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2008 - 11:38am PT
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Broken - sounds quite a bit similar to what some of us did back in the day.
My theory was that while doing the 5 sec. hangs I would use either a comfy first knuckle flat edge or a 3/4 first knuckle edge (so as not to stress out the joint too much) and use a lot of weight (typically 125 - 150 lbs. at 185 lbs. personal bodyweight). I would have to rest at least a minute, sometimes two, to be able to do another rep of 5 sec. I really wanted maximum white fiber recruitment during this part of the workout so resting between reps was crucial.
As the hang time increased to 10, 20, or 30 seconds and more, I wouldn't need as much rest between sets. The two minute hang was with no additional weight.
Before I got all scientific with the hang routine, me and Jerry Moffatt would do "hang-offs" where both of us would hang on identical edges at the same time and see who would fall off first. Those were quite fun - we'd both carry on a conversation trying to convince each other how unpumped we were while trying to pysche each other out into giving up. Sometimes we would each hit the three minute mark on a first knuckle flat edge. We tried using smaller edges but found that we were getting too much joint pain.
That's when we started adding weights and doing one arm hangs (first knuckle edge). By the way, Moffatt could easily do a one minute one arm hang on a flat first knuckle edge while I could only do about fifteen seconds. At the same time I could usually outlast him (not by much) on a two arm fingertip hang (power vs. endurance).
Note: Hypertrophy is really just an increase in cell size of a tissue or organ and is a normal byproduct of training muscle cells - not something to strive after in the world of power training. If you're into body building it may be a big objective but if you're a power lifter increased muscle hypertrophy doesn't really translate into increased power.
Edit: kik - wow, good info. I tend to agree with most of what you noted. Controlling the volume of power training is very important and also quite difficult. In my time I found Garhammer's book, "Strength Training" to be especially valuable. He has some very helpful formulae about volume control in there.
http://www.csulb.edu/~atlastwl/SI_Book_Chp5.pdf
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 11, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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A little off topic and probably not all that climbing applicable...
But I'm curious what "hand-strength" tricks you guys could/can pull (i.e. pull-ups on the bottom of a 2x4 etc).
I was never strong enough to do anything of note, though I did fool around a bit with Iron Mind products and always trained pinch grip in the weight room (with a pair of 25lb or 35lb plates - I was never able to pinch 2 45lb plates together, which is apparently a "standard" of sorts in the grip-strength world).
Here's the Iron Mind site with some of their grip strength literature (card tearing, nail bending, pinching, etc).
http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/ironmind/resources/griptrain1.html
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leo77
climber
Davis California; Sardinia
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Jan 11, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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I found a source of useful suggestions, training programs and exercises
http://www.jollypower.com
there is the English version too, although it's not updated as the
Italian one.
By the way, I think the best way for increasing the power is to climb outdoor, at least for climbers under the 5.11b. A lot of time it is just a matter of technique or a mental problems...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Wow
That Dreamcatcher is unreal.
This is what sport climbing is all about.
One hard bouldering move after another made into a climb.
Kauk accurately described it to me years ago in the 70's how in the future guys would be doing this kind of stuff.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jan 11, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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You said it Werner! That dyno that Chris freezes just after he catches the hold is incredible.
Helps if you've got power (and soul) to spare.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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JB, thanks for the tip on Wolfgang's work. If I can find a translation, I'll let you know.
Check out this search find for 'Gullich training.' Click on the first link option below his pullup pic. You'll see a bunch of awesome climbing video clips to choose from.
http://lodevebloc.blogspot.com/2007/03/wolfgang-gllich-training-theory.html
Wolfgang was such a sweetheart. And what a climber.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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Wolfie bump.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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I am surprised not to see any mention of the best, most enjoyable and most obvious form of power training for climbing.. bouldering.
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 13, 2008 - 09:28am PT
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Bachar,
Man, you should write a book. Maybe with stories and training info.
----------------------------------
I like this thread. A lot of people still have the mentality, "want to climb harder? climb more". It doesn't make sense to me anymore. I need to incorporate some of these workouts. Especially the finger strength stuff.
I do this workout about 2-3x a week. It's more injury prevention, stuff that Ron helped me set up. I've added some stuff to.
-Lat pulldowns 3x 10-12. I do pullups if I don't have a machine
-chin ups 3x 10-12
-bench 3x 12 w/20lb dumbells(I need to buy more weights)
-chest flys 3x10@20#
-dips 3x10
I used to do pushups, but they make my shoulder pop.
-shrugs 30 straight @ 20#'s
-Reverse wrist curls: I used to 20's for that, but use 10lbs or so 3x10
-Sometimes I do regular wrist curls, but I'm not to sure about them. Do they promote epicondytis?
-internal and external shoulder stuff with a theraband
-holding a really light weight and moving at a 45 degree angle up and down away from the body. Don't know what it's called.
Pronationation and sublimation(Sp?) with a hammer. I use to use a heavy hammer a 4# hammer, but I torque my wrist with it. SO now I use a lighter one.
I do ab stuff once a week and I f*cking hate it. I read abesome abs by Paul Check, but haven't incorporated much of his stuff. I do a workout by glenn Danberry from bodybuidling.com
When I make it to a climbing gym, which is pretty rare. I like to do campus lock off moves on a slightly overhanging big holds...
I'm not sure how much power all the stuff I do promotes. Probably not much..
Rock on!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jan 13, 2008 - 10:52am PT
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Quartz, you mentioned Paul Check....check out the abs and core strengthening he preaches. I've been doing a version of his core workout and I'm telling you it works! Hasn't totally got rid of my LBP(low back pain) but it has SIGNIFICANTLY helped. The key to the core schit is the transverse abdominus, as we get older, fatter and less active this muscle atrophies and shuts down, setting up a chain reaction of BAD stuff for the low back. The C.H.E.C.K. institute has some good stuff you can purchase about this subject.
Keep workin' at it bro, shoot me an email if you want more info.
Peace
ps, the word and spelling in yer wrist w/o is...supination, that opposite of pronation.
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 13, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Ron,
I'll give it a try! What I read in awesome abs made good sense, the format of the book was so damn cheesy I couldn't take it. All those dudes running around banana hammocks!lol
Thanks again for the help.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 23, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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Check out this vid of Sonnie Trotter training. It's really back to the '80s. It leaves out much of the relevant info-- frequency, rest intervals, etc., but looks a lot like the stuff Gullich used to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h07kaQKtgDY
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Jan 23, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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Anusara Yoga.
My core strength has gone through the roof. Not only that, all the soreness and stress and strain related to climbing has left my body. I have hardly climbed recently and jumping on 5.12 off the couch is surprisingly easy.
I'm not talking forward bend and downward dog yoga. That stuff just gets you warmed up for stuff like:
The Destroyer:
and
and
and
I almost have the first one down and can do the rest of them fairly easily. The arm balances bring/require ridiculous core strength which translates easily to the rock.
http://www.rossrayburn.com - this guy is doing a workshop this weekend here locally. He's an arm balance master. more core strength to come....
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minexploration
Social climber
Whitefish Montana
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Jan 24, 2008 - 09:11am PT
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In reading this thread it seems that climbers over the years have developed many accepted strength training methods for the traditional climbing muscles.
This left me thinking about what is there left to try and develop to gain more power ect in climbing. The only thing that I could think of that was not truly discussed here was the legs and lower back. I know some people say that the legs are just dead weight or if you train them you will bulk up and add more weight. There are many sports that a persons weight is just as detrimental to as climbing. Yet, the competitors benefit greatly from training different muscle groups. Many people post on the boards "How do I get better at climbing" "How do I get stronger from climbing" and the same stuff is said over and over. The answer most given is climb more, but if you are at the highest levels and you are at a plateau and not seeing increases then something in the training needs to change.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have reached the point in your training that you can not really improve things like finger strength. Look at other areas of your body that (in the case of this thread "Power Training") could improve your power.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Jan 24, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Hey, RE. the comment about Sharma not "training", smoking pot etc...
We should really be looking at what guys like this are doing that makes them so strong. Chris has arguably pulled off some of the hardest moves anyone ever has.
Genetics will only take you so far.
What they are doing is bouldering, really hard bouldering. It accomplishes all the things that have been talked about here. Especially, when a systematic approach is applied.
Check out the video of Sharma sending that deep water solo project of his...THE MOST AMAZING DYNO I HAVE EVER SEEN, IN MY LIFE!!!
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1119640408/bclid1124878386/bctid1364230333
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jan 24, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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"Genetics will only take you so far." --Riotch
Well, Chris doesn't train. Ever. And genetics has been proven to be of huge advantage in his case. One of the things you'll hear about Chris, from other world class climbers is that they are amazed at how long he can remain on the rock. Tests have recently proven that Chris is, actually, a genetic freak of sorts. He simply doesn't build lactic acid the way we do, with he end result being that he doesn't really get pumped. Or, if he does, it takes considerably longer.
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