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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion."
"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the Opiate of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
Karl Marx, 1843 (translated)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_People
As Calvin commented, after watching Saturday morning children's television, Marx didn't know nothing.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Thanks Mighty Hiker for the important Marx perspective.
Dirt, I sense I offended you and I apologize if I've come across as arrogant. I'm just a seriously flawed human, like all of us here on this ball. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were getting at by the term "retard God." You answered so quickly--won't you consider my words a little longer?
You bring up the watershed question of the inspiration and reliability of the Bible, called the isssue of Cannonicity, likening it to fairy tales. I once believed the same but changed my mind after reading, some formal education and research.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "how close to eternal life have I been?"
Do you mean how close have I been to "buying it," as in falling to my death, or being in danger of death by sickness, common accident, disaster or threat? If so, I don't think I can answer that more specifically or personally without sounding embarassingly vain.
So I'll leave this discussion for others with whom you might better communicate.
No Hard Feelings,
Bruce
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WBraun
climber
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A religious system deteriorates when there is no understanding of its philosophical basis. People are apt to reject such sentemental religions.
We must understand in fact that God is at the top of all cosmic manifestations and activities.
Laws given by the Supreme head of the cosmic manifestations constitute what we call religion.
If we create our own religious systems on the basis of sentiments, we create only troubles and will be misunderstood.
We must understand that there is a brain behind all cosmic manifestations, and if we know the nature of this brain and how it is working, we attain real scientific understanding.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Re; Mr Worrall: "Does that mean that bullshit is the opiate of the masses? That could explain a lot..."
Aye...But it's Good Shit!!
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arsenalcrater
Trad climber
Vista, CA
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Interesting thread. A few years ago I had such a conversation
with a friend. I was pretty much lashing out at all of the bull-
shit going on in the world and I stated the same quote, "Religion
is bullshit! - and who is to say one is right and another is
wrong! How can one belief choose to destroy another over what they think is right on this little back world planet in this vast universe? How can people be so f*#king igonrant?" Dennis looked out at the sky and said, "Look at all of
them stars, galaxies, moons, nebulas, and where does 'space' start and end? How can space 'end'? You can believe whatever the f*#k you want, but something had to make all of that 'bullshit'! (said in his perfect Texas drawl)" I laughed my ass off and he did too, but it was a pretty thought provoking short conversation. There is obviously no point to this post, but the conversation sticks with me to this day and I still look in wonder up in the sky at all of that "bullshit".
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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" Thanks Mighty Hiker for the important Marx perspective.
Dirt, I sense I offended you and I apologize if I've come across as arrogant."
WRONG! YOU didn't offend me. You are at least sincere in your beliefs.
What could possibly make you think I thought you were arrogant? Misguided perhaps, horribly wrong maybe, deluded no doubt, but not arrogant, not at all.
"I'm just a seriously flawed human, like all of us here on this ball. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were getting at by the term "retard God." You answered so quickly--won't you consider my words a little longer?"
What does answering quickly have to do with anything? Do you think I just made this idea up off the cuff? I am dead serious, and have put a lot of thought into the idea of a retard god. For years. It's one of the few ways to explain the human condition that actually might work.
"You bring up the watershed question of the inspiration and reliability of the Bible, called the isssue of Cannonicity, likening it to fairy tales. I once believed the same but changed my mind after reading, some formal education and research."
A house built on sand will not stand.
"I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "how close to eternal life have I been?
Do you mean how close have I been to "buying it," as in falling to my death, or being in danger of death by sickness, common accident, disaster or threat? If so, I don't think I can answer that more specifically or personally without sounding embarassingly vain."
I mean, how close have you been to finding out for sure if there is eternal life or not? Go ahead, embarrass yourself. It's what the internet is good for.
"So I'll leave this discussion for others with whom you might better communicate.
No Hard Feelings,
Bruce"
I am having no trouble communicating with you Bruce. But you seem to be having a lot of trouble addressing my questions in a meaningful way.
I'm sure you are sincere. You are probably a lot like Jennie. I have very little problem with people who truly aspire to the tenets of Christianity, but there are very few of those. And they are still wrong, but they try to do the right thing anyway.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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I acknowledge your certainty Werner.
Remember that philosophers have been mad ever since mathematicians threw them out of the temple and left them with the load of crap they still peddle.
How about you make an argument for god without first assuming he exists. Philosophers have a terrible time dealing with axioms, or the lack of them. NOT the ones they choose, but the ones they don't realize they choose.
So all you can do is claim that god, as well as the idea of god and all that comes from it, is not logical. If that's your choice, you are welcome to it.
BTW, eastern bullsh!t is no better than western bullsh!t, even if it is trendy.
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WBraun
climber
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So a point is made;
Real religion is not sentiment and that leadership has to be accepted, be it Communist, theist, or atheist.
When leadership is selected and directions are given by the leader, we can call it some "ism", but in any case, religion means accepting the leadership of God and His directions.
I don't think even the Communist, or atheists, can basically change this concept.
They also have a leader, Marx, Lenin, Stalin and they are giving directions for the people to follow.
Similarly, God is there, and the the theists are following his instructions.
So factually what is the difference? In either case there is authority.
So we have to select the best leader, and we also have to select the criterion for establishing him.
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WBraun
climber
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Next
If God is a fact, and man must worship him, then why not communally? Does he think that every individual should manufacture his own God and worship him?
God is the Supreme father of every man, of every living entity. How can he be different?
There may be ten sons in a family, but the father is one.
It is not that the different sons say, "Oh, I will select my own father." It is not possible.
The dissolution of religion means animalism, and we have come to that point in human history. That is the defect of modern society.
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Double D
climber
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Dirt: Thank you for your candid sharing. Although I have never experienced what you are going through (cancer) my thoughts and prayers go out to you.
All: God does promise, in the Bible, that if you seek Him you will find Him (Jer. 29:11-13). We are all flawed humans and I’m on the top of the list. Truly organized “religion” often degenerates to lies. With that in mind God gave us a testimony of Himself…through His Creation, through His Word and through the testimony of changed lives. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). God’s word, provides both the substance and evidence if you and I take the time to explore it.
“Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanks giving, let your requests be made known to God: and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Phil. 4:6-7)
One of the great things about climbing is that we get the privilege of seeing an environment where we don’t naturally belong in. It’s sort of like scuba diving. We get to observe some astonishing events of a Creator. The first time I witnessed a Peregrine falcon pick off a swallow in mid-flight, I sat in stunned silence at the precision executed before my eyes. The book of Romans proclaims: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse…(Rom. 1:18-20)
Great discussion…I certainly don’t claim to have any answers…but I do believe that the Bible does. May all of you be blessed in your quest for those things from above and just remember next time you see a spectacular sunset or get to the next level of climbing that you never thought possible, that God has blessed us with all.
DD
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Welcome to Planet Dumbf*#k.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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-Kevin Your still correct
Frank zappa --
Whoever we are, Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it the earth Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over Dumb all over, Yes we are
Dumb all over, Near n far
Dumb all over, Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible Tells the story
Makes the details Sound real gory
bout what to do If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here
You cant run a race Without no feet
n pretty soon There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years...
You cant run a country By a book of religion
Not by a heap Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules Of ancient date
Designed to make You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
To arms! to arms! Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears
Not his, not hers,
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!
It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem, n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)
And when his humble tv servant With humble white hair
And humble glasses And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it, cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
an maybe even a little ugly on the side
We are dumb all over Dumb all over, Yes we are
Dumb all over, Near n far
Dumb all over, Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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god is "bullsh!t".
religion is the stink
of that sh!t.
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WBraun
climber
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Bullsh'it, cow sh'it is pure.
It is the only sh'it on the planet that is pure.
Explain that. All other sh#t is impure.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Pure Sh!t is still Sh!t.
Have a heaping helping!
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WBraun
climber
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Yes yes
Every time you eat food from the field you eat Bullsh'it. The manure is best fertilizer.
Yum yum yum see Dirt and wes eat nice nice Bullsh'it .....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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I'm glad you admit you are full of Sh!t.
Such poetry!
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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I'd be stoked to find evidence of God that isn't touched by Man in any way.
Consider it - prove the existence using only your own logic and experiences, assuming nothing.
The Bible was written by Men, and thus is fallible and untrustworthy.
And for those that take some of the Bible metaphorically and some of it literally - how do you know where to begin and end?
How do we know that the entire book isn't meant to be metaphorical - your conscience would make a great God in that case.
-A
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