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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Dec 10, 2007 - 09:10pm PT
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thanks moof and pete for the informative thread. i appreciate when people post pertinent information in a concise and logical manner. thanks again!
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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Wrathchild, way to paste the poleclimber Pete. Hadn't read such a refreshing post like that in a long time.
The prospect of those hooks snagging anything during a fall is just grisly.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Wrathchild said:
"Moof,
Do you know where the femoral artery is?
It has nothing to do with disembowlment.
The inside of your knee is the PERFECT place to put a hook to slice your OTHER femoral artery.
Just stay focused enough to keep your legs apart during a fall, and you'll be fine. "
Dude, chill! Please don't direct our hatred of PTPP at me. If it wasn't for the fact that I really, really like ruskie aiders I wouldn't have posted in one of his threads (kinda thought it would have been more appropriate if he'd just posted within the OTHER 2 russian aiders threads of the last week rather than putting "Dr. Piton" and "Ultimate" in the same title. Still makes me feel a bit dirty that I have posted in this thread...
I was using the word disembowelment mainly because I like the word, the imagery, and to try to poke fun at your alarmism. I've fallen a few times with my russian aiders on, and so far no harm. After all, this is aid climbing. If I wanted a safe sport I'd take up professional flaming.
BTW, still waiting for a picture or instructions for the patented Canadian AssASSin double munter line joiner for ultimate A5 jugging.
Edit:
Please don't make fun of my ignorance. I am a high school drop out (after 9th grade), so take it a little easy on me.
Clarification:
I also have a 6 years of college and 9 years working as a microwave engineer, so yeah, I stop drooling on myself once in a while and yes I know what an artery is.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 11, 2007 - 03:08am PT
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That looks like the hook, Moof! I believe the ones I bought (not from the same place) were rated to like 6000lbs of force. I think. I'd have to check my notes. Regardless, it was *well* above what was needed. Mine had a different coating on them though - a gold coating.
Wow guys! Big wall climbing and the equipment used in it might be dangerous?!?!! Holy frig! I think I'll sell all of my wall gear! I'd hate to rick an injury to myself. F*#k, I guess I should sell my ice gear too cause that's way more dangerous. Why do you guys have to find a way to try to make everything negative?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 11, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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Nefarius,
I did run across a non-stainless version of the same hook at http://www.strapworks.com/Wire_Hook_p/wh.htm which is what I believe you are referring to withthe gold coating.
They also had the stainless ones for only $2.55 at http://www.strapworks.com/Wire_Hook_p/sswh.htm
In either event it looks to me like a little rounding of the tip on a grinder or with a file would be a good idea.
Thanks!
Edit:
Also if someone knows of better places for buckles...
http://www.innermountainoutfitters.com has the black CMI ones in my pics, and several others, but has almost zero pictures.
http://www.onrope1.com has a decent selection of buckles, but no straight double back buckles (non-cinch) that were to my liking.
Numerous other places had stuff that I'm sure would be great for a dog leash, but gave little indication that they would be wall worthy or not.
Edit:
They are rated for a working load of 400 lbs, which is probably a factor 5 safety factor. I'll do some vicious bounce testing when I get them in.
FYI,
I ordered enough to make a half dozen pairs. The hook will still NOT be great. However if anyone wants a pair of cuffs I'll try and do them for $60/pair plus $5 shipping (cuffs ONLY, see Russ for trees). One person has already requested a pair. I should be able to pop out some within a week if the buckles I ordered are good enough.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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My original post at the top of the thread has now been updated with new text and six close-up photos of the Trango cuffs, with emphasis on the hooks and their attachment to the devices - hope it helps yous guys with your design. Right then, lads - have at it. And thanks again for all your help.
I found the hooks that Evan Freeman used to be perfectly satisfactory, FWIW.
Cheers,
Pete
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 11, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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Pete,
The pics are nice, but sadly without access to hooks with that vertical slot they cannot be mimmicked too well. I'm relying on a tightly sewn tunnel to keep the hook in place, and it is a weak point in my rig, as I am stressing those stitches. The Trango design puts tensions throught the hook, so it will stay put as long as webbing and not the padding are taking the tension. Thankfully in my case the stitches are not load bearing, so they don't see full body weight, but I really would prefer access to a Trango style hook instead of this hardware store scrounge. Yankee ingenuity applied to a russian design, sheesh...
Edit:
For completemess, here are the pics or the russian russian aiders. No good profile shots of the hooks, but still a neet rig.
Curious that they don't have a clip in loop for jugging and testing...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 11, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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That's an interesting hook... Different than the other russians I've seen. The design is basically the same, however, and adding a loop to the webbing on that model would be the same as the other models I've seen.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 12, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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Ok, got some of those wire hooks in. They look pretty good. Very similar in dimension to the cliff hanger, but no need to spend a bunch of time flattening them, and less concern about them straightening out under load:
Buckles are still "in the mail", not in until the 18th :(
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 13, 2007 - 06:30am PT
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These are looking funner and funner. Thanks Pete and Moof!!!
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:13pm PT
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So I set out to see what I could come up with. I found the hook Moof was using (or pretty close) on the end of some tie down straps at Lowes. The straps had a working load of 600lbs. and a max of like 2000lbs. so I thought I might get away with using the sew job the straps already had. The goal then became to do little to no sewing.
I ended up mutilating two old harness' we had lying around. My wife's old leg loops, fully cranked down were just right for my Guide Tennies so those became the foot stirrups. Some leg loops off one of my old rigs became the knee straps. This required some modification. The harness used was a BD Blizzard which has 1" webbing running around the backside of the leg loops. I had to cut away a bunch of the padding so it would fit below my knee intead of on my upper thigh as it was designed. The nice thing about this setup is that the buckles that folks have struggled with are replaced by the double back buckles on the old leg loops so there is no slippage.
The hook on one side already had the tie down webbing sewn on so all I had to do was thread a beefy buckle borrowed from a gear sling (it's load bearing)on the end. So now the knee cuffs are in place and you have webbing with a loop on the end hanging down (the loop is what attached the webbing to the ratchet for the tie down unit). I brought that loop back up to act as the clip in/hauling point on the knee cuffs. Now the beefy buckle is hanging down at upper calf height. I then threaded the remainder of the double back webbing from the foot strap through the buckle, thus giving me some adjustment between the upper and lower components.
I tried it on with my knee pads and it's actually quite comfortable.
As for the aid trees with rings, I hopefully have some coming from Fish but in the meanwhile I had to do something to test my new creation. I took some 6mm cord, put a eight on a bite on top and clove hitched rap rings at about the distances I would expect the rings on the Fish/Trango trees to be. This appears to work very well. The rings are lightweight, interface really well with the hook and the whole rig is easily replaceable if something is wearing out. I don't know if the rings will deform under heavy bouncing but we'll see.
I'll try and get some pictures up over the weekend but all in all I was pretty pleased with what I came up with.
Total carnage:
1 medium duty tie down kit from Lowe's
1 old Trango Super Fly wmn's harness
1 old BD Blizzard harness
10 rap rings
2 lengths of 6mm cord (7mm might be better as it would likely drape a little better, thus putting the rings in a predictable place and not stretch as much as 6mm though some of that was no doubt knots compressing)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
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Like Deucey said: " These are looking funner and funner."
But Wrathchilds post summed up my first and initial feelings about having hooks and sh'it like that strapped on to me.
We rescued a guy once who had a biner embedded in his leg on a fall.
He was hanging there hooked to that biner, YIKES! I need to find that photo.
Anyways, if you like this setup cool, but I would never want to use it as I tend to like to cut loose out of my aiders and those hooks, straps and buckles would tend get in my way.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:59pm PT
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Dear Lord!
I guess we gotta change out the whole rack to nothing but quicklinks?
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 14, 2007 - 01:41am PT
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^^^He had a lot to say?
Wraithchild is full of crap.
I would be more worried about the rack of pins (pointed objects) hanging off of the wall rack (next to all your vital organs). What about the big hooks dangling right below your rib cage?
I have fallen while wearing RAiders. No problems yet.
You bounce off stuff and you are going to get hurt. It doesn't matter if you are wearing RAiders or wall ladders. You are more likely to get strangled by your wall ladders than punctured by RA's. Sheesh. Boneheads.
If you think climbing is dangerous and it worries you then you should take up crocheting instead.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 14, 2007 - 01:47am PT
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On a positive note, the RA's are very cool IMHO.
Moof is moving right along with some great ideas.
How many people really want a pair of these?
Trango wanted $120 for a pair of cuffs and nobody bought 'em?
Would people pay $160 for a full set up of two cuffs and two "Pro Model" trees? It seems that PTPP and moof and I are it for the seriously interested.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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Nice posts, guys.
Werner, so far as I am aware, there is no documented case of anyone getting hurt by a Russian Aider hook when falling. Have a look at the Trango hook - it is very small, round, and rather unthreatening. It would be virtually impossible to impale oneself on the thing - as buddy above points out, there are any number of nastier items on your lead rack to do you in first.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 14, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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T Moses,
I'm convinced that there are about 10 guys interested, 9 of which made their own, and the tenth was Kate who now has hers. Even with Zebra print webbing I'm guessing nobody will take me up on my offer to make Ghetto Cuffs (other than the one person I have already shipped a pair to).
Pete makes the point that there aren't a critical mass out there. Most folks stick with what is tried and trued, so unless you can actually see them in action, and try your buddies out first, most folks simply will remain curious bystanders.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 14, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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I'm looking forward to learning some new moves on the aid slings, then perhaps try out for the Cirque 'd Soleil or something.
Has there actually been anybody who caught something with the hooks during a fall, or is it a bushesque tooriest scare?
ps, Pete, what's with Wrathchild's wrath? Did you mistake him for one of your furry sheep at some point or something???
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 14, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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These just look like the stuff. Still dialing the old system (adjustable aiders)and loving em. Pete, are these that much more comfortable on rough terrain? What I'm wondering about is does the all day use of a hook near the knee, with the foot being the leverage off of point, kinda wear on the knees? Just wondering as I'm a dainty 245 at 6 foot tall with knees just about worn out. How do your knees feel after all day in these things while climbing on just one side of your leg?
Lots of cool stuff here. (Disclaimer to follow- Had to come out of Lurkdom just to ask Wrathchild this)
Wrath, If your climbing skills all over the world were as honed as you would like me to think, then why would you ask this? "Duct taped hook for pro, and the very next piece is a bolt? What's the point?". With the caption for the photo clearly stating Kate as the esteemed photog, it was quite clear to me(still a wall gumbie in training) that maybe he was just being a gentleman and leaving something for the second to traverse on? God that felt good.
Thanks for photos as I'm going to tinker with some chromoly I have in the garage and wonder what the optimun hook would look like? Round with a round blunt point? Flat stock to spread out the load at the band transitioning to round hook? Or is the hook in Moof's picture of the Russian Russian aider the one to have?
Bob
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