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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:12am PT
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Come on kano, bred dogs aka domesticated dogs have not been wild for thousands of years.
I'll agree with you that most people don't treat their dogs very well, as dogs are pack animals, so they need other dogs around, and dogs need room to do dog things, and I'm sure if dog owners had to eat the human equivalent of dog food they'd throw up first.
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:19am PT
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I understand that dogs can be annoying. But people can be excessively bothered and anal about said dog. Some common courtesy would be nice on both fronts.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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Damn dog;...made him bump his head..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:26am PT
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It WAS crowded at Joshua Tree today.......(We climbed at Mongolia today;....we were the only ones there except 2 out of bounds campers near the crag...they packed up and left after awhile and we saw no others all day......)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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On belay?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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warbler, have you ever read the ingredients on a dog food bag, or a dog food can?
WEll OK, do that and just mix some up yourself. Go find a "meat byproduct" source, (that means, all the stuff you'd never eat, that gets ground up and made into dog food), mix in a lot of cereal and work from there.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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"Is that a giant pile of .....?
This dog problem IS getting out of hand in Josh."
NO, the rock at Jtree just LOOKS like giant turds.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:37am PT
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Use a dog....go to jail
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:00am PT
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Historically, these dog threads always manage to get record numbers of posts.
I'm a bit neutral on the issue. It probably depends on the owner, on the dog, and on the crag, and it's pretty hard to make rules and ethics on something where "it depends"
It's not my call and I ain't making it. NPS has already made the call so it's in the interest of dog owner to make sure their dogs are cool if they decide to push the boundaries.
I think the bottom line is that folks don't always feel comfortable and safe around other people's strange dogs and climbing is unnerving enough without that uncertainty. They don't want to admit that so they cite other issues instead.
Peace
Karl
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 09:36am PT
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Why do "climbers" feel entitled to break the rules?
you don't bring your dog into The OLIVE GARDEN Or BED BATH AND BEYOND, do you?
Then why a restricted area of a NATIONAL PARK?
a climber RUNNING away with a dog fron A PEACE OFFICER is BAD for the whole community.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Leave those pesky bastards at home tied up and forgotten, beat it on occasion to show them who's boss.
As you can see this guy is submissive as a kitten.
I bring my dog to the park but he's to old to get around now so he hangs in the truck{his favorite spot on earth}, and we return every few hours to walk the old dude and let him stretch his legs. I clean up after his craps and he does not roam free. Hasn't this topic been hammered to death already. Is this your biggest problem when you go to the park? How about being a tax payer and not being able to enjoy your park for more than a 14 day stay in high season?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:21am PT
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Dogs actually are allowed at B/B/Beyond. They even have pads to fit the shopping cart bottom so you can put Fido in there(which they prefer, rather than having Fido on the ground where his tail might swoosh over a precarious pile of overpriced product, or a kid might run up to "pet" Fido, start poking at him and get bit, thus making BBB liable in a lawsuit, etc.).
I bring Teddy with me to the Gunks. He gets, every single time, at least a few people who exclaim how incredibly well-behaved he is. I can't take any credit for it; he trained himself.
But! I have discovered that he IS a Sandwich Hound! At present, his count for smoking out, retrieving and devouring sandwiches at the crag is at 10.
That's a lot of sandwiches!
Now, before you get snitsy..... These sandwiches have all been feral sandwiches. Their person has either dropped part and left it where it lay or tossed the unwanted end off into the talus, where Teddy has definitely been known to risk a limb or two in his quest to keep the crags clean.
One day I was down at the end of the Nears(guidebook routes end, that is), and all of a sudden, off he went, bounding down the hillside. That is some steep, overgrown talus, and I was terrified he'd take a misstep and go rolling all the way down to the deli.
No amount of calling him back would stop his trajectory or even slow him down. Finally, he got to a spot, stuck his nose deep into some jumble of brush and began rooting around.....
It happened that Dick Williams and crew were down there, taking notes and getting climber consensus on some new routes he put up. As I am trying to get my dog to stop, worried I may have to go down and get him, Dick says maybe he's found a dead animal.....
ICK!!!!
Finally, Teddy gets what he's after, and lifts his head high, proudly displaying his catch. A HUGE chunk of sandwich.
Dick goes...."uhhhhh, oh yeah.... I tossed that down there last week."
Note: Teddy has never once snagged a sandwich or other food that someone cared for(wellll....once he did bit the tip of Colorado Mike's cold pizza slice, but Mike had been sitting there, in the cab of his truck, talking with his hand, waving the pizza back and forth..... I guess Teddy just couldn't help himself. It was like "Enough already! Use it or lose it, bud!" Luckily, Mike also had a dog, and saw the humor of the situation).
I will say this - When I am on a route or belaying, Teddy is on leash and tethered. I personally don't like it, at all, when an unaccompanied dog comes round while I am climbing, even though so far there's never been an altercation. So far every time these dogs have been the sort that don't mark or start barking or anything, but there is always the fear that one day it will be one of those awful dogs some of you seem to run into each and every time you're out there.....
As for JTree - I haven't ever brought him out with me, mainly because of the flight issue, but also because of the restrictions. This last trip, I was off on a solo day, and exploring the area west/northwest of Barker Dam. I turned around, at the base of "Little Hunk"(I think - too lazy to go look it up right now....) and a bobcat was sauntering past, 15 to 20 feet behind me. I was really glad I didn't have Teddy along with me at that moment.
If he were there, he'd surely have barked at that cat, thus peeving the cat, no doubt. If he had been off-leash, I don't doubt he would have went off on chase. "Wow! That cat's bigger than Orangie at Camp Slime!" he might have thought..... And that would, most likely, have been the end of Teddy.
I learned a lesson at that time, luckily without any painful experience.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:46am PT
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Two comments:
First, on pack animals. It is my understanding that PERMITS are required for pack critters, and that it is a FEE process. Is this correct, and does it apply to one person/one horse, or only "guided" pack animals?
Second, I love dogs as much as the next person, but the RULES are for everyone in a National Park. I understand the whole "pirate" climber persona, but what if EVERYONE visiting Josh, Yose, or YNP thought that "they" were pirates as well and brought Fido along--7,000,000 dogs over the course of one year, just at those three parks alone !!!
The rules may suck, but a National Park (Monument) has them in place for the MASSES.
Take the pooch to one of any other gajillion climbing areas where they are welcomed, don't spoil someone else's Nat'l Park experience by being rebellious and disrespectful of the RULES.
edit: Then there is the whole legal liability issue, but that is another thread altogether.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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As a crag dog mine has a single bad habit, which I won't mention here, but he would never think of stealing your lunch or befouling your gear or the trail.
Befoulment in fact has never been an issue with him because he likes to go way off in the woods, weeds or whatever other micro-wilderness privacy he can find. I didn't teach him that but it's a very helpful trick. Our backyard and its trails never need scooping up, nor do the crags when he visits.
Wish other dogs knew this trick.
Edit to add: he only hikes where he's legal.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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While we're at it can we solve the problem of the wandering screaming child of the irresponsible parent?
Also I find Teriyaki a good alternative when you're running low on BBQ sauce.....
Mmmmm finger licking good
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scooter
climber
Moss Landing CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:55pm PT
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I was climbin' with myself in J-tree and a collie type mutt came and hike around and while i soloed watched me. Funny thing is it knew where to meet me at the walk offs from the climbs. I fed him some granola bar, wierd, he liked it. Gave him a little water and after a few hours and a few routes later he left. Months or even a year later i was going to try to solo Zodiac and that same little mutt was at the base. He seemed to remember me. So I fed him some granola and gave him a good pet. happy that my pal was there. Few hours later a well known famous climber type guy, rapped dowm from attempting to free a variation to the left of the 1st pitch of Zod. It was his dog. Ha. No wonder it knew the walk offs.
As far as i am concerned break all the rules you can, dogs too. Maybe a few more dogs up in Tuolumne would help that pesky belding ground squirel problem.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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People are overly sensitive, if you ask me. We live in a pretty comfortable world, and yet everyone finds something to get offended about. A well-behaved dog, which most are, is not a big deal, people! Get a grip! Chill out!
Regarding wilderness impact, uh, in the opening post a dozen things are mentioned that climbers do badly NONE OF WHICH HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOGS! Maybe we should ban humans and allow dogs?
Regarding horses - yup, better lobby, and I think the impact of horses is far WORSE than dogs. Horse poo contains all kinds of seeds which can and DO germinate into invasive species! Invasive species are far more detrimental to the environment than a few dogs chasing squirrels in the 0.1% of the park that happens to be already heavily impacted by a trail, road, and humans.
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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scooter said
"As far as i am concerned break all the rules you can,"
ok, whats your address? i wanna come over and get a new tv, and, possibly a computer.
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the-shoe
Trad climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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The plain and simple fact is that with in the National Park system there is a duty to first and foremost help the ecosystem of said park to thrive in adverse (I use adverse because no National Park in this country isn't filled by millions of tourists every year) conditions.
The fact that we are still able to partake in these areas is a privlidge in and of it's self.
The truth of the matter is that these areas are very fragile ecosystems and the park systems have found a manageable way to grow and maintain the parks with our excistance. We have to remember that neither dogs or humans are indigneous to the desert enviroment. It would appear from the lack of respect from visitors to the park and their dogs, that the park service has found it more and more difficult to maintain and peserve the delicate balance of viable ecosystem and park.
In my eyes we have a duty to not take advantage of the areas that we are permitted to climb in. With how large of a foot print man kind is leaving through out the world you would think we would be happy to do what is asked of us by the people who are actualy doing their part to ensure there is a natural world for generations to proceded us.
Honestly, I think it is time to stop our bitching and to stop feeling so slighted by every rule adjustment in every park around the world. It is time to man up and take some responsiblity for the world we are creating and leaving behind for others. Plain and simple if the people who help perserve these areas ask you to leave the dog home, leave it home. And if you really need to I am shure you can nail yourself to a cross at the entrance of the park to prove your point about how unjust this is to you as a dog owner. Look closely around it's not only climbers, too many tourists are walking their dogs without leashes. We need to stop thinking as climbers that this is our park! It never was and never will be. Do your duty to help or stay home, please.
J-Tree being all the poor climbing stereo types it is, is still one of the few natural desert ecosystems that is thriving due largely in part to the national park system. Believe it!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Gotta lock up those damn coyotes before they ruin the backcountry too!
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