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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:43pm PT
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T2,
third pitch was the crux; off the top of my head about 6 quarter inch bolts, no rivets, and definitely NO drilled hooks (but plenty of hooking).
Again, that was mid seventies, still behind the curve (Friends weren't even out yet).
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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I've stuck my neck out doing clean aid in the Fishers, Canyonlands, and other mungy rock in the desert. I've taken a few big falls too, and one where I broke three ribs and finished the route. I've placed almost no pins in the desert on a lot of routes, including new routes. There is no way in hell I would go up the Streaked Wall without a hammer and everything in the arsenal. Do people talk sh#t about climbers doing something like the Reticent with a hammer too?
Nice work on the Streaked Wall guys. That is as proud as it gets.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:00am PT
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No, Andy you're right. However, if something's gone clean, then it should stay clean, IMHO. A nailing route is a nailing route but every effort should be made to not nail if there are other options as the route evolves (unfortunately). That's all I was getting at and the subject of clean climbing is an ongoing discussion with Ammon. A sore subject. Some people are very concerned about impact and rightly so. Like I said, I'm sure the guys had a heck of a time and good for them. It would be nice to read about their adventure.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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To my knowledge, no one has ever done anything clean on the Streaked Wall, and its probably going to take a shitload of bolts or chiseled nut placements for anything to be done clean there.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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sick. that wall is just plain sick...good on em, and that push sounds like a mighty effort...
(long post on other subject snipped...wouldn't mind a separate thread to discuss the issue, as i have a few questions on both sides of the fence...)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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Ammon thanks for the updates! Zion doesn't get enough love around here. Nice to see it getting some attention.
Like T2 said, any ascent of the Streaked Wall is a proud one. Good lord, the approach to the base alone takes a solid set of balls. Props to those guys. Especially doing it in a push like that.
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Proud send, no matter what the others might say. I believe this is streaked wall route #2 for Matt.
Watch out, the N.P. Service will all get micrometers to see how much the crack expands after each ascent so they can ban climbing.
They are much more concerned about that than erosion due to people walking off trail and littering.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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mimi said"Blindeye has already made up his mind about unnecessary nailing. He's a boy of manifest destiny. You really show your colors with your comment to Ron, but no surprise. "
mimi, apparently you have not had the pleasure of following in ron offenski's tracks. you might want to do that b4 you think you are on the same side as him.
carving holds on a wall to dumb it down to his level of free climbing....
cerberus was climbed hammerless by him after at least what about 8 times where he used the hammer to "carve" nut placements into the soft stone so that he could then tout his "hammerless" position.
thanks for the thread ammon that is a cool wall and those are proud sends!
i am all for minimizing impacts but find "offenskys" position tiresome...
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GoBig
Big Wall climber
beakland
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Nov 14, 2007 - 09:52pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:27pm PT
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Remarkable how boldly anonymous posters will twist rumors to fit their purposes.
It would be nice if we could trust subsequent parties to only use the same scars in a way that encourages the evolution of nut placements, but experience shows otherwise.
When everyone is the author then there IS no author, and gravity eases downward blows more than upward. By the time the second jugs (especially on "speed" ascents) he just wants to get the pin out fast.
The result is, unfortunately, predictable.
Part of me wants to be around to tell the mallet-heads "I told you so", but part of me wants to see a less myopic ethic evolve with climbers willing to compromise in order to prolong the viability of what I've come to understand are very fragile climbs.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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By the time the second jugs (especially on "speed" ascents) he just wants to get the pin out fast.
The result is, unfortunately, predictable.”
Ron, it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about regarding speed ascents. I (and my partners) climb and clean EXACTLY the same way I would if I was spending multiple days on the route. The only difference is we’re not wasting time at the belays because we’re short-fixing and not hauling all that crap.
In reality, it doesn’t really slow the team down while cleaning (so, it doesn’t really matter how fast you arrive at the belay) because the leader is making progress while short-fixing, especially on the harder aid routes.
We’re not cleaning all that fast and spend a lot of time doing the best job we can, both removing the gear and also re-racking in an orderly fashion. In the long run it saves time to climb/clean smoothly and be organized.
So, you can generalize and make ASSumptions all you want about how “we” are being sloppy about cleaning pins while doing routes in a push, but unless you step up, try it yourself and figure out what we are really doing up there… I will continue to try and educate people that it is LESS impact climbing in this style.
It’s my opinion that your fragile little ego is somehow affected regarding “speed climbers”. You have no clue about “us” climbing in this style, so your opinion carries NO weight, for me.
Edit: BTW, Hawkeye is not anonymous and yes, you are a known "placement creator", Aka: "chiseler". Quit trying to re-write history!
Another Edit: Please start your own thread if you want to discuss this, like I suggested before.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 03:31am PT
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Nov 15, 2007 - 08:21am PT
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In response to your response to my comment on page 1...(whew)
I don't know if it came across that way, but I didn't mean to have a tone of "too bad, the route is there, end of story." I think it's pretty obvious that if a wall is falling down around our ears it might be best to leave it be. No one in their right mind would be ok with damaging a limited resource. It sounds like you are right in terms of it not being a B/W issue and the need for compromise.
Like I mentioned above, I don't know a lot about the condition of the rock on the streaked wall, past ascents and local ethics and I don't want to make uninformed posts. I just wanted to congradulate the climbers who evidently got up some hard routes. The ethics here are for more informed heads than mine.
Cheers
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Nov 15, 2007 - 09:35am PT
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big props to anyone sending the streaked. Proud as hell regardless.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 09:48am PT
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PR, "Remarkable how boldly anonymous posters will twist rumors to fit their purposes."
ron, unfortunately you are now twisting reality. tell everyone here how you drilled pockets in sandstone to dumb down a free route in order to bring it down to your level in snow canyon. tell everyone here how you carved out nut placements in order to make climbs go clean (cerberus) (constructive scarring or carving the rock which is it?). tell everyone here that you did not put up such "bold visionary" A1 routes like prodigal sun. and now you are bitching cuz folks are using the trails you carved into the rock?
the routes you put up are not even in the same league as SW climbs. i climbed with the guys that did the fa of streaked wall ron, and you aint fit to live in their poop tube. and while i dont know ammon i dont think your fit for his either...
sorry for the thread hijack here and thanks for the pics ammon. now if only ron could go back home to his septic tank.
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:18am PT
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What are the routes on the streaked wall? How many, grades, etc. I'd like to get more info on it...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:27am PT
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So you rerack in an orderly fashion, Ammon. Gee I'm such a nOOb, I'd never have thought of that.
I trust you checked with Conrad to confirm the veracity of my story.
So,.. if you don't like the question just respond to a different one huh?
The only "chisel" I use is a drill, but then so did the pioneer of that route on a third of the anchors in your photo. Pretty 'biners though.
It does no good to point out that constructive scarring uses traditional tools since to you it is "chiselling"
Perhaps you're right though, ..I see the after effects of so many attempts that I tend to make assumptions on a broad scale. I apologize for doing so, it was wrong of me, but my experience with your putting up an ethical front that seems rather threadbare after one looks behind the curtain (need I go into detail?) makes me wonder if you're just blowing more smoke.
Oh, and if H is not anonymous he hides it well.
Yes (gasp!!) I have altered rock deliberately, so does anybody who places a bolt.
But when I do it the intent is to make a route last, not to try to impress everyone with what big numbers I do and then tell anybody that doesn't that they live in a septic tank.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 10:46am PT
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My point about racking is that if we're taking the time to organize as we clean we certainly can take the time cleaning a fragile pin placement.
It’s so ironic that you have probably done more damage on the FA’s in Zion, single handedly, than any other person but now you don’t seem to remember it.
“Constructive scarring”?
Who’s blowing the smoke?
Edit: Conrad or RQ has NOTHING to do with your arguement
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:53am PT
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perhaps PR's holier than thou attitude is but a product of his surroundings...who knows and who cares.
going up the streaked wall is a proud send and that is what this thread was supposed to be about. doing it in a push? real proud.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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I call it constructive (as opposed to DEstructive) and if others engaged in it, as you say YOU do, then I wouldn't feel obliged to complete the job since others would.
OK, so you say you take great care.
Good on ya.
But truthfully, how many ascents do you think any of the SW routes can bear before they're blown out?
C'mon Ammon, for the record, how many?
H,
maybe my routes are holier than thou's but plenty of other people's routes have as many, or more, holes.
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