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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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The royalties to the FA go into that person's account, thereby paying his/her way to continue impact activities on other resources.
I gotta admit, Ron, you've been ahead of the curve the whole time on Zion. Good on ya.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Thanks Ryan.
Obviously the FA party would have to provide a reliable topo first.
This topo could be updated by subsequent parties, but they would recieve a copy in exchange for their small partial payment.
This provision would side step the exploitation of intellectual property by certain individuals though,...
gee, I'm all broken up over their potential loss of profit. LOL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Good luck selling YOUR program Stinker.
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Yaro
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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And how we going to determine whether person possess enough climbing skills to climb "our finest routes"? Possibly certification? Should we introduce "AMGA Certified Climber" exams with various levels of difficulty? :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ever go SCUBA diving?
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WBraun
climber
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After reading all this sh'it I'm never going to Zion ever again not that anyone could give a sh'it either.
Too many rules and rulers ......
After 427,000 years, it will be safe to go again.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Werner failed to note my comments about proliferation.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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yo- WTF does my grandmother have to do with this?
"Now I feel like a prick. Not as bad as with Dodrill's grandma but still pretty bad.
AND I nailed last weekend..."
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Jerry, just referring to that deal where (I thought it was) your granny tried to find your pics and got shunted to an adult site and then I started making wisecracks about it like I was 13. Kinda like I was doing to ol' Nate here till Melissa called me out on it.
(Sorry again.)
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Oh, yeah. No worries. Carry on.
Sure do miss her.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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This is an interesting and informative discussion. I don't have any experience in Zion, or indeed with much sandstone, and so can't/shouldn't actively participate, but lurking is worthwhile.
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Nate Furman
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 09:35am PT
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Ron,
My phone is 541.420.2307. You can email me at nathanfurman@yahoo.com.
By the way, I'm the person who showed you how to open .pdf documents about 3 years ago.
Thanks for your thoughts. Not a troll.
Cheers,
Nate
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well done Nate.
Will call, but first I'm sending an angry email to the Supt. of Zion suggesting he read this thread.
Done.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Hi, Jock!
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Doug Hemken
climber
Madison, WI
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From a land manager's point of view this is small potatoes compared to the impact climbers have going to and from the cliffs: eroding use trails have much more ecological AND aesthetic impact than imperceptibly widening cracks and a few rope burns on rocks few park visitors could hope to even see.
Who would want to waste a lot of effort regulating the gear climbers use and how they use it when there are so many more pressing issues to deal with?
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Nate Furman
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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Doug, I think that you're right. Disturbance at the base of climbs and at the top of climbs has much more "impact" than a few fixed stoppers or rope burns in the rock...especially if the land manager is taking the perspective that their job is about "protecting" the natural state of the environment from the user.
I'm concerned about the routes as recreational resources; about what the lifespan is of these routes. Are these routes something that are going to be climable in 30 years? Or is the natural state going to be so changed that they no longer desirable to climb?
Cheers,
Nate
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Very short approaches and a decently high cactus density conspire to keep most people on trail in this region. These same short approachs put our climbs under the microscope, in this case.
best quote of the season thus far on the fun bus, while stopping under cerberus w/ a party sitting on their ledge over the roof: "This is a practice climb, easily done in a day. These people are setting up their beds for practice on real mountains"
times like that i wish they had a loudspeaker like the dragon.
edit to add, i think PR's right on w/ this one. it will be unpleasant to begin, but the alternative is 600' bolt ladders next to blown out scars.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Lets face it, vegetation at the base can regrow, but hauling trails permanently inscribed up the walls, Zion's main attraction could become a far more serious consideration.
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Nate Furman
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
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Ron and I just spoke on the phone. I also sent him an email, and I figure I'd cut and paste the email here:
It's clear that the routes in Zion are "eroding"; I just don't have a sense of how fast. I'm curious how soon this is going to be a problem for climbers. Right now, it isn't an issue for most of them, but I'm thinking of future generations. I view the routes as an important resource that is only important if they are climbed. If ZNP restricts the use of the routes, then effectively they destroy the resource. My concern is that ZNP is going to find out about the problem in a worst-case scenario kind of way; then install some policy that dramatically restricts the use of the routes.
My hope is that they will address the problem in a more pro-active way by gathering input from stakeholders and involve them in policy decisions. They should consider adopting Limits of Acceptable Change (LAC) framework rather than use a carrying capacity model that they presently ascribe to. The carrying capacity model does not work for these routes, because the routes are not very resistant (like granite climbs are) and do not regenerate (as vegetation does). The carrying capacity model suggests that a resource can absorb impacts if an pre-determined number of people are able to use the resource. This isn't the case with aid climbing in Zion.
The LAC framework believes that change is inevitable and that the purpose of management is not to keep things as they always have been, but to allow change to occur at a given rate. This model will allow for more appropriate management practices to develop, rather than ones built around an antiquated notion (that change will not occur). The carrying capacity model is flawed for use in recreation; it was adopted from the range management field, where there are formulas for determining how many cows can be grazed in a field before it becomes overgrazed and needs greater recovery time. Most outdoor recreational pursuits, be it climbing or camping or mountain biking or whatever, don't lend themselves well to this model.
ZNP still ascribes to the carrying capacity model though, and communicated as much in their new backcountry management plan.
Thanks so much for all the input.
Cheers,
Nate
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