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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 18, 2007 - 08:56am PT
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Soylent Green. Solves multiple problems at once.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Oct 18, 2007 - 10:57am PT
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"What If Humans Were Vegan?"
they would all taste better, that's for sure...
serious question - how many people out there have gone vegan, even for a short period of time, and had it be a bad thing ? I don't mean hard to do, I mean bad for your body ? I've been vegan off and on for several years now, and it's really been nothing but healthy with the exception of the cravings for protein after my surgery, and that's more from me slacking on the diet then anything else I think...
i think for thousands of years we ate a lot of meat every now and then, when the tribe killed something big...the rest of the time we ate what we found ? i think the daily meat is a new thing, on the scale of our evolution/existence ?
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Most of my friends are flesh/fish/fowl eating indivuals.
This does not cause me to lash out and wish to slay them.
People love to talk about their meat, " it's succulent they say, just slides right off the bone, is dripping with juice, tender, and delicious, I just love LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMBBB and could not live without MEAT."
Often I wonder, why do my friends become defensive and angry about my conscious choice to follow a Vegan/Vegitarian diet? Is it fear? Do I threaten them? Or do they feel a sense of something right?
After all, we loved, Chicks, little wooly Lambs, Puppys, Kittens, Calves, Piglets and Ducklings.
As children we all had them served up to us for supper as steak, chicken, fish, or pot pie, it is absurd to think that I would find fault with their food choices when I at one time also consumed animal products.
Unfortunately for the animal kingdom this is what we were taught to consume and it is certainly not going to change anytime soon.
When guests come to stay here it's uncomfortable to ask them not to place animal flesh in my fridge, or cook it in my pans mostly because I like my friends and want them to be comfortable. The response I get is:
"Oh come on JO, you've got to be kidding." I respond, "No I am absolutely NOT kidding".
What I know fellow Supertopians, it is right for me and it's worked well for over 25 years.
"What if Humans Were Vegan?"
Wow, what an amazing concept! Why not try it for a week?
You'll definately loose a pound or two, see skin blemish's vanish, smell better, rarely have grey hair, look years younger than your age, have low blood pressure, high red blood cell count, and still crank super hard at the local cliff, or gym. What more could you ask for? Yeah, I know....BEEEEEFFF.
Some of my long term friends often say, Jobee, "I can't wait to have your Vegan Stew, Tofu stir fry, and Vegan Chocolate Cake".
I must say this is nicer, and it's fun to share a meal, great conversation, and good wine!
Others, well, they just stay eleswhere and think i'm NUTS!
Gotta go Meet one of my Meat eating, super strong climbing pals.
p.s.
She makes a mean Vegan Stir Fry!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:09pm PT
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Good question Jo,
I think people get defensive when they feel your lifestyle choices are a statement against their own values and choices.
Like my friend Prod used to say to vegetarians:
"Are you vegetarian for political or dietary reasons?"
Of course, he's just pulling their chain, but I think he's angling at the answer to your question.
Keep in mind, I don't have any trouble at all with vegetarianism, veganism, macro psychotic diets or the like. I also think the post Dr. Spock laid out is pretty right on. It's clear to me that a small percentage of the world's population engages in a great deal of the consumption.
So far, I can see I'm part of the problem and it doesn't look so easy to extricate myself from this modality.
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2007 - 06:25pm PT
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A few comments.
It really doesn't matter a rabbit's ass whether an individual or a few are vegan, or not.
 Sorry if anybody thought that was what this thread was about. It has the same de minimus impact as a single individual trading cars for bicycles on planetary greenhouse gases. The question is about an entire population making a change.
Understanding is hard, but important
Karl, I suggest the work, because I already know how to collect facts (not factoids) and use them analytically to understand the nature of a problem and its ramifications on solutions. A number of others here can do that as well. Maybe we are nerds, and don't look at it as work, and find it satisfying to understand things at a deep enough level. Factoids and internet references are not knowledge or understanding
Mr. Spock's analysis is engaging
Having said that, Mr. Spock offers an interestingly, and admittedly very simplified analysis of the issue with his trophic analysis. This is pretty engaging. At first glance it seems to distill the problem down to a very simple solution - changing the entire population to all vegan would not matter. Forget that he uses magic numbers that are all factors of 10. That is an objection that makes sense, but can be adjusted to fit perhaps without too much impact.
The solution to this problem is far more complex than its statement
I do not have a solution to this question. In fact, I will use Spock's analysis analogously to show what is wrong with it by switching domains. Say for example, the question before us were not consumption of meat versus non-meat, but rather amount of CO2 production per person. Human production of CO2 is a very small percentage of total atmospheric CO2, just as human consumption of light generated nutrients is minuscule globally. Yet we have a large body of evidence from thousands of scientists who would assure us that dropping our production to 10% of today's level would have a very dramatic impact on the temperature of the earth. Why is this? Because the responses of these systems is far from linear. On top of that, very few humans are capable of understanding non-linear systems. They really are pretty complicated.
Other fun stuff to look at or play with
For anybody who does not believe that, research predator-prey population models. You could start here. Even some very simple differential equations can be devilishly tricky to solve - primarily because they are, in fact, too simple.
See also a remarkable book - The Logic of Failure, Dietrich Dorner - Insightful descriptions not only of a number of disasters, but why politicians and scientists are often so poor at getting things right.
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Oct 18, 2007 - 06:28pm PT
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Roy,
You have the nicest way of putting things and you always make people laugh, way better than waving banners!
What really makes sense is acceptance
I laughed really hard once when a friend told me that
P.E.T.A. stood for (People eating the animals) even though I am often in agreement with some of the work P.E.T.A is involved with and made my choice because
"I can't stand the slaughter" !
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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Thanks Jo, we all have a personal style I suppose.
So TIG,
Please help me out here, because my pencil is not so sharp (not trying to be facetious here).
In a nutshell, if it's appropriate to grasp your point in such a fashion, are you saying that some of the gross polarization we see on these big issues, such as global warming and where we stand on food pyramids, that this polarization, this binary on/off assessment is not nearly so fluid respective of the complexity of real-time outcomes, when compared to the simple choice/fix outcomes that get proposed?
Edit:
Not only are you suggesting that our models are oversimplified and flawed, but that the outcomes of the prescribed fixes, specifically as they relate to the food chain, such as a global vegetarian diet, may in fact, mess things up even worse?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 06:49pm PT
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I'm pretty sure that what keeps me from driving a vega is social/family/girlfriend/spouse (going back, but it was, an issue), pressures, I am not comfortable having them make some thing special for me -and they need to try, and I love them for that!
Also, in the last fidy-odd yrs I have become fond of what cheese, lobster, salmon, shrimp, snails, etc, taste like. I am pretty sure I could get past that, though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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Tiggy
"Understanding is hard, but important
Karl, I suggest the work, because I already know how to collect facts (not factoids) and use them analytically to understand the nature of a problem and its ramifications on solutions. A number of others here can do that as well. Maybe we are nerds, and don't look at it as work, and find it satisfying to understand things at a deep enough level. Factoids and internet references are not knowledge or understanding "
Thanks for your usual patronizing steaming pile. You post a lot about doing the work but I've seen few examples of you actually doing it.
Plus, the kind of work you are suggesting is quite notable for bearing little resemblence to real life. A more practical example, if you do the basic physics for a daisy fall, you'll prove that a daisy fall will either snap your daisy or kill you. Many climbers have taken them with neither consequence so I guess the calculations don't seem factor in enough variables. Likely to be the case here as well.
I don't see how you get your conclusion that "if everyone were vegan, it wouldn't make a difference" from Spocks example. He seemed to show that eating meat was a far less efficient use of energy and resources than eating plant life.
Of course, perhaps it wouldn't make a huge difference to the overall environment, but neither would the extinction of the human race if you take a long term view. The Earth doesn't need us and it doesn't need food.
But for the issue of hunger and sustainability for Human life, Spock's model seems to show that Vegan would be better, no?
You wrote
"Human production of CO2 is a very small percentage of total atmospheric CO2, just as human consumption of light generated nutrients is minuscule globally."
That's like saying Human pollution dumped into the ocean is a very small percentage of total ocean water. So what? Human consumption of light generated nutrients is miniscule globally compared to what? You could say all the nutrients are light generated ultimately. Or are you compariing meat eaten versus plants eaten, cause I'd want evidence that meat surpasses plants if we're talking worldwide.
One thing is certain, the US diet needs to change cause the world is mocking our fatness more and more all the time
peace
karl
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
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Someone mentioned the fact that in desperate situations people must kill to eat and survive. Now, taking life is wrong, but it is difficult to blame the person in this situation because they don't really have a choice; they are probably acting more on instinct than thought, because at the point of starvation we don't think, just act. I've thought for a long time about how to solve this paradox. And I've realized that it is our duty as people with some means to help the starving people in question both for their own sake and so that they have the luxury of making the conscious choice not to eat animals. God knows there's enough money in the world, it's just going to the wrong places. If we all banded together we could easily feed the whole world with non-meat products, which would actually be more efficient, as Karl mentioned earlier with his statistics. For people concerned with not getting what some might call the "natural dietary requirements," such as with growing infants, it is clear that with all the supplements around such as whey it is easy and probably more healthy for everyone to get the same nutrients as carnivores, but with a vegetarian diet. A vegan diet is a different story, because dairy products such as milk are an important part of the diet, but I don't see why it's wrong to drink milk as long as it is obtained humanely with no suffering on the part of the cows (win-win situation). For the record I'm a strict vegetarian (I don't eat fish or poultry either.)
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
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Correct me if I am wrong - but was it not the fact that brain development among proto-humans did not increase until said simians began eating a high-protein diet?
If true - then the internet would never have been created if we had remained a race of vegans.
Then what would you do with your free time?
Actually, you would no have no free time as you would spend all of your waking hours grazing.
Last I looked - I had neither a rumen nor a cud.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
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It's a complete myth that a vegetarian diet is a low-protein diet by default.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
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No prob, rickyd, you stand corrected. hyuck, get back to the books.
oops style edit!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:43pm PT
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Modern vegans may have access to artificially hi-protein diets thanks to Archer Daniel Midlands - but I took the premise of this query to be at the evolutionary level.
And as for modern veganism - I find the commercial products to be comprised of some of the most contrived lab-created crap this side of Twinkies.
My daughter has been strict vegan for 6 years and fully half of the "healthy" garbage she consumes is loaded with sugar and manufactured ingredients that have never existed in nature.
I mean come on - ever see a "seitan" tree?
And please, don't give me the "beans are a complete food" crap or the "soy is god" argument.
Neither of these so-called complete foods naturally existed in their present high-protein state until modern agriculture artificially created these items over the past 40 years or so.
I fully believe that modern veganism exists solely because of food scientists and genetic modification...not nature.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 07:54pm PT
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I dunno Ricky D. When I trek through the Himalay, seems like the Sherpas are pretty much living on Flour, Rice and lentles (and rice beer) and they kick ass.
"Correct me if I am wrong - but was it not the fact that brain development among proto-humans did not increase until said simians began eating a high-protein diet? "
I don't think we know enough about protohumans to make judgement but we don't need to. It's plain that there are fantastic thinkers and fantastic atheletes that are meat eaters and one that are vegan.
Peace
karl
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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"you ARE forgiven"
Forgiven for what?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Oct 18, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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Smoking weed makes you a vegan?
Who knew?
Maybe I'm vegan after all:)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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Sorry, tradcrag... I meant corrected, not forgiven, and Ricky D, not you! erp. but that other guy implies that we are 'saved' if we go back to c-burgers and reefers. Are we doomed?
Sis, corn tortillas and beans, lentils and rice, not rocket science, as you know.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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The whole planet is now suffering as a result of the enormous burden of karma created by massive slaughterhouses killing large numbers of innocent animals, particularly the cow. For peace and prosperity in the world this animal killing must be curtailed. If animal killing continues global war will be the inevitable result.
Varnasrama
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
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Werner,
You might be joking (or maybe not I can't tell), but it would actually be an interesting topic of research for qualified psychologists - does the slaughterhouse mentality cause people to put less of a value on other types of life as well? Is there a corresponding increase in violence in factory farm or slaughterhouse communities versus other types? Obviously I am not qualified to answer that but I bet someone is.
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