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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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"News Flash: You're gonna die anyway."
well, yeah...but I'd like to lose the man boobs first ;-) and here i thought it was from the non-stop ingestion of female resins and herbal combustion byproducts...
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Somewhere LEB said that man boobs came from excessive ingestion of alcohol. :-) Not that that makes it any truer than publication in NG.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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I think they are actually from over ingestion of Luna BarsŪ.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The fine print on Luna Bars says "For Therapeutic Use Only". To cure or prevent what, I wonder?
"Nutraceuticals", they're called.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Just just heard this guy on KQED radio this morning:
From Plastic to Lipstick
Investigative journalist Mark Schapiro reports on the chemistry, consumer safety standards and the health hazards inherent in common products and how inadequate environmental laws may impact the U.S. economy.
Host: Michael Krasny
Mark Schapiro has written a book enitled "Exposed: The Toxic Chemistry of Everyday Products and What's at Stake for American Power." Seems germane to the topic.
There are chemicals banned in the EU that are allowed in products sold here in the US. They specifically talked about pthalates, not BPA. A quick web search indicates BPA is not banned in the EU, but they have set the Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) at 0.01 mg/kg bodyweight/day, which is 5x lower than allowed by the EPA. Estimates on BPA intake via food packaging are much lower than this, thus no action has been taken to ban it. What about quaffing down a couple of quarts from a Nalgene bottle over the course of a day? I don't have time right now to figure out how to convert ppb to mg/kg bodyweight, but I'm sure someone else does!
Personally, I feel the chemical stew we're living in can't be good for us. Lightweight stainless water bottles are available. I've been meaning to get one for a while...still drinking from reused #1 bottles myself.
Enjoy,
Tomo
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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A short list of chemicals I help put into your municipal drinking water on a regular basis.
Chlorine
Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach)
Calcium Hypochlorite
Sulfuric Acid
Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)
Ozone
Hydrogen Peroxide
Poly Aluminum Sulphate (alum)
Proprietary long chain polymers (floculants)
Ferric Chloride
Potasium Permanginate
Carbon
Flurosilicic Acid
Sodium Flouride
A few more I can't recall right now.
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Keeper of Australia Mt
Trad climber
Whitehorse, Yukon , Canada
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2007 - 09:57pm PT
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TGT - finally an assessment which explains the phenom of South Cal culture - who would have ever thought it was the water?! :)
All the more reason to hang out at the Cirque or North Baffin where the water is god's gift to the Great White North and it's amazing inhabitants.
Mal Daly - "After a while they (Nalgene bottles) retain that urbane,
honed, Rodeo Drive- Eddy Bauer look that brands them as authentic sport climbers!" :)
Everything has to be kept in perspective - TGT's laundry list of southern ingredients may pale in reflection with the analysis of the true, and embedded ingredients of vegemite - a substance apparently ingested in vast quantities by the "hardmen and women" of the Antipodes. Apparently also applied to at least twenty digits in the place of real climbing chalk - look at any photo of an Aussie crag and you see big splotches of the stuff - turns white from brown in all that direct sunlight down under. If you got vegemite you do not need steroids. It does tend to have an oudure - thus the name of that infamous high end route - Skunks on the Rim at Araps.
We have a subsidiary sidebar discussion on this topic loose on Chockstone - with its own distinctive Aussie twist - we are trying to decipher what it is they are actually putting in their bottles - can't be water as there isn't much down there. Maybe Kiwi wine - as there are more Kiwis in Aussie land then Mexicans in Texas. Maybe we should export some real beer downunder to ease their stress.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I forgot the
Aqueuous Ammonia
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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Nefarious
It's sad to me that you feel that way about some display of awareness and action -- in whatever form -- against our modern toxic lifestyle. Looking at one issue can lead to awareness of the larger picture, which we desperately need more of in the US.
The concern to me is not death, although rediculous modern cancer rates are coming from somethere... but things like CFS (chronic fatique syndrome) and MCS (multiple chemical sensitivity). Insidious, often subtle and quite debilitating. "Syndrome" means we aren't sure the cause. It is suspected that MCS has something to do with CFS. CFS ruins lives.
Death is just one outcome amongst many. I am not worried about death when I cringe from fumes that burn my mucus membranes. Like I am not overtly worried about death when I choose to keep my cell phone further from my head. Studies point to tumors on the outside of the brain, a new phenomenon, but people keep sticking the damn phone to their ear. Why? Is it absurd to debate about cell phone risk? Why is it ever absurd to talk about environmental and public health risks, even if there are more than we can keep up with? Shall we just acquiese to it all... consume consume consume?
I think it isn't about one person and their individual risks. Then, perhaps, one could see absurdity -- as the individual who worries about a bottle drives 95 miles an hour to get somewhere on time...duh, of course. But really it is about the rates of unwellness in a society. And the ignorance pervading the society, the sense that we are safe if the government says so, that corporations tell us the truth. Maybe climbers are a little more in touch since they "commune with nature" more than the average city dweller. So good, then, let climber voices rise about all sorts of issues... more climbers should be activists, dammit.
I feel that questioning the status quo is never absurd. Looking twice at the smallest issue could open a mind for life.
PS When I will ever see you to give back your chalk bag? I haven't been to Yos in a year. Yikes.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:38pm PT
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Jerry mentioned: "saw green slime" in a water bottle, of Scott Burke's. Which raises the very valid point that water bottles do need to be cleaned regularly - otherwise they're a fine place to breed all sorts of algae and bacteria. Especially the threads on the caps and bottles. The lexan bottles seem to stand up to application of hot water and soap and brush better than the PVC ones.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 03:38pm PT
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I understand where you're coming from, cybele. But I also think that "Syndrome" is another word for trendy these days. There's tons of syndromes now, and funny that they don't know the cause but pharm companies certainly seem to know the cure! There's even a restless leg syndrome now! Wow! I think a lot of it is hype and a fear campaign to get you to spend. Just like every f*#king thing on the planet causes cancer now. Used to be, "Be careful with that, you'll put your eye out!" Now it's, "Careful with that, it will give you cancer!"
Does any of it really matter anyhow? I mean we are all surely going to be killed by the roving hoards of terrorists lurking in our very own back yard, at any minute! I mean, right now there are numerous terrorists roaming the Central Valley, just waiting for the right moment to strike.
Sorry, I know, it's overboard, but it's fun. =)
So, where are you now, cybele? Are you still in SoCal? I'll shoot you mail.
Cheers!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 10, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Back during WW II our parents decreed we would not eat at what then passed for fast food stands along the highway during "polio season". The agent causing polio was not known at the time. Do I think that precaution was a worthwhile trade off between convenience and risk? You bet.
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 10, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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jstan, during polio season, did your parents let you stay in the house? Was that worth the risk? Did they let you go to school?
These are just other activities that you did likely partake in which were equally unknown with respect to their role in polio transmission.
I would be willing to bet that your mom believed colds came from change in temperature, or going outside without mittens and a coat. Because they used a strategy and ex post you caught no disease is meaningless. Likewise that you did so and caught a disease is coincidental to be sure, but not necessarily indicative of a causal relationship.
We are talking about drinking water from a container. Forgoing Nalgene for another container is a choice between risks. It can only be evaluated in the context of the choice made. Not drinking is ok, if the duration of the activity is quite short. But the other alternatives involve drinking water from some container, or choosing a different water source, say for example the frog pond at the Uberfall. Dogs drink out of it with no apparent ill effects. But I bet you would drink first from the Nalgene.
Most of these silly threads go like this: X is bad. Almost all such arguments should be couched in what are the merits of X versus Not X, and, in most cases, the Not X is a whole spectrum of alternatives.
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L
climber
A chartreuse glider in an azure blue sky...
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Oct 10, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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Cybele,
What an excellent post. Alas...pearls...wasted pearls.:-)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
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More time to read your post, cybele... Was a bit distracted when I read the first time...
You said, "And the ignorance pervading the society, the sense that we are safe if the government says so, that corporations tell us the truth."
So, what you're saying then is that doctors and pharm companies aren't part of this machine? They're only corporations too, all in it to make money. Fear is their biggest marketing tool, just like the government you speak of. We keep finding all of these horrible things in everything we touch, eat, breathe, etc., yet people live longer and are, in general, healthier than they were 50 years ago.
I just don't buy into the fear monger strategy of marketing or living. I wonder what similar tests to, say, Tupperware or Rubbermaid would show. Seems like we made it through that generation just fine and that no one died or became ill from eating out of their dishes.
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L
climber
A chartreuse glider in an azure blue sky...
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Oct 10, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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A woman I work with just came back from lunch with a friend...the 2nd of her 30-something friends to be diagnosed with breast cancer this month. Please do not try to tell me this is a normal genetic event that just happens to be surfacing in holocaust numbers at this day and time.
Nef--You don't have to buy into the "fear mentality", but awareness and activism are a much higher level of functioning than denial and escapism.
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 10, 2007 - 07:36pm PT
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http://www.cancer.org/downloads/stt/CFF2007AgeAdjDthRatesFem.pdf
L,
Seems breast cancer rates have dropped dramatically since 1990!
Your story is an example of what we call anecdotal data. That is one of the most unreliable methods for discovering useful information. The extrapolation to "holocaust" based on your "sample" is exactly why this is so dangerous.
Being aware is very important. Activism without knowledge is what I call being "just smart enough to be dangerous".
Crimpie could give you a whole course on the proper use of statistics. But even that still does not help much with proving causality.
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phile
Trad climber
SF, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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TradIsGood:
"Most of these silly threads go like this: X is bad. Almost all such arguments should be couched in what are the merits of X versus Not X, and, in most cases, the Not X is a whole spectrum of alternatives."
tell me if i understand you correctly: you seem to be saying that this thread (by which I understand you to mean anti-Nalgene sentiment based on recent research?) is silly (read "unsophisticated"?) because it does not consider the potential dangers of the alternatives to polycarbonate vessels nor the distastefulness of drinking pond slime (or is the issue giardia? cryptosporidia?). or are you simply of the "everything causes cancer, f*#k it" school (I don't get that impression from your post)? or "climbing is more dangerous than cancer; therefore climbers are irrational to care about cancer"?
what do you drink out of? Personally, I'm most interested in a drinking vessel that (1) isn't suspected of transfering harmful chemicals and (2) doesn't have slime in it. I don't think this is an overly restrictive set of criteria--it won't inconvenience me much at all.
I realize this post makes me sound like an ass. So it goes.
p.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 07:53pm PT
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Well, to preface, I don't use the silly water bottles anyhow.
"but awareness and activism are a much higher level of functioning than denial and escapism"
How is it denial or escapism that I have zero concern that my water bottle is going to impact my life in any fashion? Seriously? OK, so fashion is about the only way in which it can impact me, as has been pointed out here.
I'd call that indifference, perhaps. Lack of concern at best. It's certainly not denial or escapism.
The time wasted on this thread has had a significantly higher impact than anything a water bottle can provide...
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