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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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I'd like to know exactly what abou this accident has anything to do with GYM climbing?
Who talked to the victim and heard she learned to lead trad climbs in a gym???
Who has been climbing in a gym that claims to be able to instruct profficient trad climbing, indoors??? I'd like to know which one please.
I'd don't know why you old crusty tradsters have to blame gyms for any bad thing that ever happens in climbing...
Matt, Owner
http://www.roguerockgym.com
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:14pm PT
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Gosh I must be obscure today. I am talking "legal liability" not fault. Legal liability always falls on a deep pocket whether they are at "fault" or not. And these kinds of considerations are affecting the instruction that people are able to get.
In the old days a lot of people taught themselves which was pretty risky. It was speculated that the accident at the leap may have been influenced by inadequate availability of good instruction. I was trying to address why this seems to be an increasing problem. Maybe REI and like minded groups will be able to help.
Is this any clearer?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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Matt:
From what I have seen and from what I have heard people leaving the gym environment have to jump a huge gap when they go outdoors. And there are a lot of people attempting this transition without ready sources of instruction. I think this is a problem. Perhaps you have an answer? I hope so.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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sorry, but you don't know what the f*#k you are talking about...(regarding your lengthy rant on the secon page)
gyms are not responsible for what people do outdoors.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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Hey Matt,
I pull on plastic and love it. Also love getting run out on easy trad routes, and bouldering, and sport climbing.
I do not think anyone is actually blaming your industry. I think what Chainsaw and others are speculating is that with gym climbing new climbers are getting physically stronger faster without the following natural progression of placing gear and feeling real rock as they grow as climbers. With that being said, the problem comes around when these people move to the outside. They may be physically ready to pull down on some hard #'s but lack the experience of route finding and proper gear placement, potentially putting them selves in danger.
Prod.
MATT, I do not think anyone is being adversarial. You're out of line with your tone there. You being a gym owner and I am guessing a outdoor climber as well have an excellent opportunity to provide some input here as well as potentially help create a solution for at least your clientele.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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“I do not think anyone is actually blaming your industry.”
Chainsaws post:
The more I hear about this, the more I think it is time to stop using the Yosemite decimal system in our gyms and take responsibility for what we are teaching people there. We are giving people the wrong sense of security and mastery, misleading folks into thinking that plastic climbing can convert directly into rock climbing.
jstan’s:
In the process of building their inadequate business model
the gyms may ultimately risk doing damage not only to their
customers but also to the “rest of us.”
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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Prod:
OK I see your connection. I would guess forty years ago there was perhaps one instructor/mentor available to teach every five beginners. (By its nature the teaching process is one on one.) I think that ratio has become much much larger. I can't say how big frankly. It has to be really tough out there now.
Whether we talk about it or not, considerations of liability will not tend to increase the number of volunteer instructors out there. The things you mention play into that mix. So yes. It is a real problem. Teaching youngsters is a great experience. The more you and I do this the more we do to lessen the problem.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:38pm PT
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Matt:
Let me tell you something that really concerns me when I teach climbing to youngsters. I am giving them tools with which to go out and try to do things. If I give them tools to go out and do this but do not also give them the tools that allow them to understand and conservatively to manage their risk, I have not done my job. And when it comes to climbing the consequences of doing half a job are pretty severe.
How do you manage the issue of protecting your customers when they go out and try to use what you have taught them?
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Hey Matt,
I think that Chainsaws post is just restating the context of this issue, that there may be a perceived natural progression from indoor climbing to outdoor climbing. This is certainly not accusing gyms of anything. I'll let Jstan cover his own point with where he is going with the whole "bad business plan" issue, but the bigger topic that he is touching on is liability. Potentially this means you from a legal point of view.
So in your experience as a gym owner as well as a trad climber, what can we do to better prepare new climbers for this transition? I am sure you have some valuable input on the topic.
Prod.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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What I don't understand is how gym climbing at all relates to the context of the issue? Again refer to my first question above ^^^
If gyms want to instruct trad climbing outdoors and actually have their students practice trad leading under their supervision, then they can pay extra to be insured for it. What people do out on their own does not concern us as far as liability.
From my experience, 'most' gyms don't claim to be able to teach someone to trad climb, especially inside their facility.
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own. This is the standard outlined by the Climbing Wall Association. If people want to ignore that premis and take what they learn indoors outdoors, then it's on their shoulders not ours.
More importantly, we have big signs that state, 'CLIMBING IS DANGEROUS, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK"
I'm just sick of people makeing blanket statements blaming the gym indusrty for bepople being stupid and having accidents at the crags, is all.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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My bad business plan refers to the content of my post above. It is an incomplete(bad) business plan when you build a widget, and sell it to customers without thinking through the whole life cycle of the product. You teach people how to climb up in the air, you necessarily must teach them how to manage the risk of doing so. Seems no leap at all to me. From a simple business standpoint you have to do this if you want customers to come back. There are other reasons more important than the business reasons why one should do this, but let us here just look at the business aspect. We can argue about the other reasons later.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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Fatty, WTF is a 'titon'? Is that like pro for the lady-folk?
I wouldn't mind gettin' some tit-on!
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:07pm PT
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Who has been climbing in a gym that claims to be able to instruct profficient trad climbing, indoors??? I'd like to know which one please.
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own. This is the standard outlined by the Climbing Wall Association. If people want to ignore that premis and take what they learn indoors outdoors, then it's on their shoulders not ours.
Lead Climbing
Learn to lead climb in the Rogue Rock Gym. Private two hour class covering lead rope skills,
clipping, lead belaying and falling.
Members - $35 Non-Members -$45
Advanced Skills
Want to go from the gym to the outdoor crag? This is everything and anything you want to
know about rock climbing. This may include, outdoor techniques, anchors, self rescue, aid
climbing, and more. This class is customized to your needs in order to help you reach goals
beyond the gym.
Members - $50 Non-Members -$70
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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IMO
Gyms are the biggest factor in supporting climbing accidents for new climbers. One thing for sure, gyms do not put any effort in educating climbers on safety.
Here just tie a fig 8, belays is on and keep your hand like this
And do not forget to buy this $299 on-sale leader kit for your first trad climbing
by the way, sign here so you do not SUE us later
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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jstan, if you knew anything about gym business plans, then you'd know the key to success is soccer moms and birthday parties, and keeping your members coming back has more to do with clean bathrrooms and good routes. Trad climbing classes make up maybe .5 percent of revenue. And once you teach someone to trad climb on their own you ussualy lose them as a regular visitor.
Gene,
Our lead climbing classes are inndoor sport climbing bolt clipping, and our "Advanced classes" are private, and yes I can teach you to do any aspect of climbing as safely as it can possibly be done, and if you don't believe that, try me. And I would not tell any student they could become a profficient trad climber indoors.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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Matt,
I have no doubt that you are a good, competent instructor who stresses safety.
But how can you say this:
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own.
And then advertise the following:
Advanced Skills
Want to go from the gym to the outdoor crag? {Snip} This class is customized to your needs in order to help you reach goals beyond the gym.
Matt. I'm not trying to give you a bad time. I just don't get it.
Regards,
Gene
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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Stzzo has a real point about thinking. When you are on three holds and you have only one hold to grab for the next move, your thinking is pretty limited. Outdoors you are generally looking at several hundred holds and you need to know asap which set will work the best for you. And protection is all about thinking. The environments and the demands upon the climber are entirely different.
Stzzo got close to the crux on this IMO.
EDIT
And your go-cart comment is another winner IMO. I started driving around nine or ten and I had 20 acres to cut cookies in. You learn what a vehicle can do and what it cannot do. If Ford explorer drivers had a chance to run those vehicles on a track they would be in better shape. So yes, I think there is a big cross over between driving and track. I was pretty chicken in go-carts though. Going full power into the button hook to get the four wheel drift was, for me, uncomfortable.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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Gyms are the biggest factor in supporting climbing accidents for new climbers. One thing for sure, gyms do not put any effort in educating climbers on safety.
Sure, new climbers get into climbing after being at the gym. Probably accounts for a significant number of new climbers. Stands to reason that if a number of new climbers get hurt, and a high percentage of them got into climbing from going to a climbing gym...then, voila.
But, I've never been to a gym that didn't put at least some effort into safety. They have to. Sure, some don't police as well as they could. But to say that they don't put any effort into safety is BS. And, I'll venture I've been to a significant number of the climbing gyms in the U.S.
If I were in the "bizz", I'd be psyched that there is a way to get folks into climbing, via the gym, boyscouts, whatever.
I dunno. Just don't think its fair to place the blame on outdoor climbing accidents on indoor climbing gyms.
-Brian in SLC
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chumbawumba
climber
SF, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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For those who were discussing the legal liability of teaching a person to climb, below is an interesting head note from a California case dealing specifically with this topic.
“Negligence § 37--Exercise of Care--Plaintiff--Primary Assumption of Risk of Risk--Rock Climbing. --A wrongful death action brought by the widow of a participant who was killed during a rock climbing class sponsored by defendant was barred by the doctrine of primary assumption of risk, and the trial court therefore erred in denying defendant's motion for summary judgment. The complaint alleged that decedent's fall was the result the negligence of defendant's instructors in placing four rope anchors into a single crack system resulting in the release of the line holding decedent. Defendant met its burden of establishing that decedent was not taken beyond his level of experience and capability in the activity culminating in his fall, and that the risk to him was not beyond that inherent in any top rope climbing activity. Falling, whether because of one's own slip, another climber's stumble, or an anchor system giving way, is the very risk inherent in the sport of mountain climbing and cannot be completely eliminated without destroying the sport itself. Plaintiff produced no evidence that failure of a nominal lead instructor to double-check the work of two other instructors could have prevented the fall, or that such a procedure was routine for the sport. The special dangers posed by the sport of rock climbing did not require application of the duty of ordinary care; inherent in the sport of rock climbing is the fact that a fall can occur at anytime, regardless of the negligence of one's coparticipants.”
Regents of Univ. of Cal. v. Superior Court, 41 Cal. App. 4th 1040 (Cal. Ct. App. 1996)
The California Supreme Court has since clarified the law with respect to sports instruction and its possible another result might be reached as of today, nevertheless, even with the clarification it appears as though it would be very difficult to place liability upon a person providing climbing instruction unless they did something intentionally wrong or did something exceptionally stupid.
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