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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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doug, don't waste yur keystrokes, he sees a conflict w/ iran as a stepping stone to invading syria and saudi arabia...
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 17, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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We've "technically" been at war with Iran since they took over our embassy: that was an attack on US territory and is recognized as an act of war. If Jimmy had taken immediate and forceful action then, we wouldn't be in our present situation. He should have notified the Iranian government to release the hostages forthwith and unharmed. He should have made it simple: the necessary naval and other forces are rapidly preparing for a massive attack on Iran. There will be no negotiation. Once those forces are in place and ready, they will attack if the hostages have not been released. But, Jimmy was a dunce and an appeaser, too bad.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 17, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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Gee Matt, I certainly hope so.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Sep 17, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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Matt,
You are right on.
He does not want "arab muslims" taking back land or imposing sharia law, but I'm sure he would be all for Israel expanding it's borders and imposing it's laws on the people it had "conquered"...i.e. Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
If Syria and Saudi Arabia are just bombed and not invaded, you will end up with 50,000,000 (plus or minus 250,000) pissed off and probably radicalized muslims feeling very violated.
If you bomb or invade Iran Syria or Saudi Arabia you bring full-circle the prophecies layed down by the radical leaders of islam and give them creedence, because their prophecy DID come true, "the American and Jewish infidels want to destroy Islam".
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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crowley-
these right wing asshats are all about reaching back in time to some place where they can blame anything you can possibly think of on a democrat.
woody probably doesn't even know, or certainly would never acknowledge, the close and private negotiations that GHWB/ronnie raygun conducted w/ the iranian revolutionary hostage takers, in which iran agreed to release the hostages, but not until after ronnie was in and carter was out.
(later, of course, they sold weapons to iran to fund their preferred side in nicaragua, all w/out congressional approval, and completely illegal)
further, there is no point in discussing the flawed US policy of installation of and support for the shaw of iran, because the root cause of any action is of no interest whatsoever to a republican (edit- that's an unfair generalization- "many republicans" would be more like it- /edit), they just need an explanation that reinforces their worldview.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Sep 17, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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"Who has Iran threatened?"
.....exactly!
By using "some peoples logic"(edit, not yours AC) I need to "take out" my neighbor, whom I don't get along with. He has a bunch of camoflage clothing, many guns, and an urban-assault-vehicle style truck in his yard. He gives me the evil eye when I drive down the street. He has never directly threatened me, but he told my other neightbor to f*#k off. I'd better "take care of" the situation before he "gets" me.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 17, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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(to paraphrase somebody-or-other)
the problem isn't christianity, it's so many of the christians
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2007 - 12:01pm PT
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more ruthless?
(is that like "VOTE OR YOU DIE, BIATCH!!!" ?)
so are you all for the ruthless imposition of freedom?
or only the ruthless imposition of shopping?
btw- do you feel as ridiculous as you sound?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Gee Matt, the probability is high, it won't be long before you'll really have something to fume and swear about. Why don't you roll a turd around in your mouth so we can have the full impact of your spewing.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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Matt,
The link you provided is interesting, but it deals mainly with retired military. In fact, it makes a point of saying that several of the individuals didn't speak up when in active duty.
What is needed is for active duty generals to speak out (including Petraeus). Shinseki is a better example, as he publicly stood his ground, and was forced out because of it. That's the standard Petraeus should be judged by, not these retired guys.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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hey there woody-
you have been supporting this president and this pet war of his around here for almost as long as i have been wakning about both of them, why not enlighten all of the rest of us by pointing out one single thing that you have EVER been right about, wrt this topic?
(btw- thanks in advance, as i am aware it will require a significant effort on your part to filter through all the crap that eventually turned out to have been somewhere between inaccurate and untrue, or at best was "overly optomistic"- as in we are turning the corner with this event or that)
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 24, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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No Matt I have not supported Bush throughout this war. He screwed it up as I've said numerous times. You ignore that because it fits your polemic. Right now I stand behind what Petraeus has stated and hope he succeeds. Whether we ultimately succeed is unknown. If we don't stabilize Iraq, the ME will probably blow; and that will be on the head of the Bush administration. The conduct of this war has been abysmal. Petraeus and his approach is the final shot; I give it 50%. What it comes down to is the Iraqis. If they can't get their house in order, I see an expanding war throughout the region; and we'll be in it no matter which party is in charge in Washington.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 24, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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stzzo,
You're right that protests in the military are not a simple matter. And soldiers shouldn't necessarily be able to disobey because they disagree with policy.
But I'm not talking about ordinary soldiers. I'm talking about the generals. Regardless of the whether or not the political decision to enter into this war was bad, there had to be many of them that realized that there was no coherent post-invasion plan and there was a high probability of problems.
Just as I expect civilians to be able to check military power, I also expect the military experts to be able to provide a check to the idiot civilians (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bremer). And yet most of them failed to do so.
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