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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Oct 27, 2004 - 12:11pm PT
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If no one asks for a rescue, should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?
Every person has a right (IMHO) to go onto public lands and have adventure that may lead to their own death. The rescuers did a GREAT job during this episode but I do not think that there should be any type of automatic rescue policy. If a rescue is not requested there should not be one. EC is a wilderness, even though it is close to the road climbers need to accept that a rescue may not be available to them. Just like if they were doing a wall in the backcountry.
How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?
The NPS should never be responsible for monitoring climbers on EC. Every climber venturing onto the big stone must take responsibility for themselves and any rescue they may need. Never expect to get rescued. As in this case the rescuers may not know you need help until its too late.
PTPT’s question, why didn't anyone go save them?!, is way out of line!
Pete you, who holds yourself out as a “big wall expert”, should know better than anyone that it is your responsibility and no else’s to get you ass safely back on the ground. Your comments are nothing more than Monday morning quarterbacking. Obviously the Japans party chose to climb EC in a particular style (as we all do) and in this case the risks unfortunately caught up with them.
EC is a dangerous place, it is not the holo-deck of the Star Ship Enterprise. You could get killed up there!
My condolences to the fallen climbers and their families and a big kudos to everyone else involved.
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Q
climber
Oakton, Virginia
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:10pm PT
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I think Pete's question is completely valid. We must constantly question ourselves and those around us. If not, how will we ever learn from our mistakes and grow? Sure the SAR team did 99 things right, but if they did 1 thing wrong, shouldn't we figure out what that 1 thing was so next time it can be 100%?
Don't get me wrong, my gratitude for the SAR team runs deep. I spoke with many of them last week and they're dedicated, selfless individuals. I'm proud of their efforts and professionalism. However, we're dealing with people's lives here, so we can't let pride or other emotions cloud our examination of the facts. Slamming the door on dialogue doesn't accomplish anything.
"Should the NPS automatically rescue teams off El Cap after a certain amount of time? Two days? Three days?"
I'd say no; I talked with other climbers who were still fine after three days in the storm. If the weather had cleared, they could have kept climbing. Obviously not the case with Mariko and Ryoichi, but that just goes to show there's no hard and fast rule.
"How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas? How much self reliance should climbing teams have?"
I'd say in theory, the NPS should have zero responsibility, and climbers should assume they're on their own. But in light of recent events, there's situations where people are caught unprepared (for whatever reason), and in situations such as these, I think it would be better for everyone if NPS and SAR played a more active role. When a big storm blows in, catching many people off guard, would it be reasonable to have someone stand in the meadow all day, and monitor parties more closely? I don't know if this is feasible, I'm just asking. It seems like a little effort in this regard might save a lot more effort down the road.
Another suggestion is to come up with some kind of universal distress signal for parties that need help. Three whistle blasts? Wave your underwear over your head? Whatever, just make it universal, and make folks aware. That way, there's no confusion over whether someone needs a rescue or not.
Anyway, thanks again to YOSAR, and hopefully we can all learn something from this.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Oct 27, 2004 - 02:36pm PT
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"How much responsibility should the NPS have for monitoring people in wilderness areas?"
0%
"How much self reliance should climbing teams have?"
100%
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It's difficult to ask these questions and I'm sure it's difficult to be asked these questions. It certainaly depends on the intent. It's hard to read people (and their intent) from typed words. I don't feel that there is any intent in finger pointing at all. The intent here seems to be to learn from past events (selectively NOT using the word "mistakes"). I hope that is the case.
Enjoy your winter off, Link!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2004 - 04:38pm PT
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Q
Belive it or not shift rangers (Jack and Ed, sar cordinators for Valley), were constantly monitoring climbers during the storms.
Werner
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 27, 2004 - 05:21pm PT
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Look, I am not being critical of SAR or anyone else - obviously everybody tried their damnedest to save everyone! SAR's efforts receive my heartfelt applause, because they were willing to risk their necks to help save others. If you don't think this is honourable, then ask Tom Patey.
Besides, I am the last person who could or should say anything, because I myself walked beneath the base of El Cap on Sunday and Monday, and was completely unaware of the climbers on The Nose who subsequently perished. I accept my share of responsibility, too.
But they did perish, despite an active rescue, and despite constant monitoring according to Werner's note above.
In the aftermath of a tragedy such as this, it is important to examine the situation like an engineer, and take a problem-solving approach. This is far different than finger-pointing. If anyone is going to point a finger, you can point it my way first, cuz I'm as guilty as anyone.
What I want to know, and still do not understand, is how the hell this happened - that climbers in need were not rescued despite an ongoing rescue happening!
Here are a few possibilities:
 was SAR unaware of them until it was too late?
did nobody notify SAR in time?
were they obscured from the sight of SAR by clouds or corners?
did SAR elect to wait until the heli could fly to the summit before commencing rescue efforts?
when did rescue efforts commence, and was it too late by then?
didn't their friends contact SAR?
if rescuers couldn't fly up there, then why didn't someone go up the East Ledges ropes or hike the Falls trail?
if SAR was unwilling or unable to get up there, why didn't anyone say anything to the dozens of climbers, like myself, who were wandering about the base of the crag or through the meadows to see if anyone else could help?
Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying this is anyone's fault, or that a mistake was made. I don't understand what the rescue protocol is, and how stuff happens. I still don't understand what happened, or didn't happen, here. I don't get the timeline.
These are tough questions to ask. Some might not like to see the answers. But the only way to solve the problem, and help save more lives next time, is to first diagnose the problem. Once diagnosed, then we can look at alternative solutions to the problem, and implement what needs to be done.
Perhaps nothing went wrong! Perhaps everything went according to plan, and nobody would have changed anything in hindsight. Perhaps the storm just came on too fast, and these guys died too quickly. Yet above it is reported they died Tuesday afternoon, but the storm began early Sunday morning.
I emphatically concur with the first two paragraphs of Q's post three boxes above.
And again, my condolences to the families.
And thanks again to SAR for all their efforts - while I have yet to be rescued, it's good to know that if I ever get in trouble up there, I won't be completely on my own.
Pete
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Lg
Trad climber
Sow City
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:09am PT
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Certainly we should welcome question but you know, with this particular incident a little tact is a little more appreciated. Nobody is slamming the door on discussion, but some people like to pop off and it's annoying.
As one that does much of my climbing in the backcountry, I honestly never even consider SAR, you know, those three letters just don't make it on my list. Much because if anything bad enough did require their rescue, it would probably be too late anyway, maybe. I like to be self-sufficient, I don't like to rely on anyone but myself and my party...there are many factors I do consider: health/fitness; conditions; equipment; communications; technical rescue skills. Some of these require decisions or options that I will decide upon according to task. Not much changes when I climb in the front.
Some like to look at SAR and see what they can 'fix' but you know, they aren't the ones that are broke. If you're thinking SAR SAR SAR it's already too late, we need to think about the things "BEFORE" SAR. Sure, hopefully SAR (THanK U) will always be there, always be ready to go, and that probably won't change. And with all due respect to the Japanese party, what happened to them won't ever change either. Whether it was in their control or not, they had breakdowns with conditions, equipment and communications.
We're not always going to get the combination just right, we're not always going to save everyone that needs saving. We need to accept what happened more than we need to dissect, splay it open and pin it under a glass. Peace to our brother and sister.
Lg
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Southern Man
climber
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Oct 28, 2004 - 09:00am PT
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Just my two cents worth - but it strikes me that maybe a public forum isn't the best place to be discussing "events" and/or "mistakes" that may or may not have occurred in relation to people dying. I know, I know, we need to learn from events like this so, hopefully, they never happen again. But for a moment think about the risk (i.e. liability) a public official can bring upon themselves by posting on a public forum, the inside details of such a rescue/retrieval. Can anyone say L..A..W..S..U..I..T?? What we've learned so far is compelling but I think we are all fooling ourselves if we think were going to get a whole boat load of more info. or find out what happened on an hour-by-hour basis from the past Saturday thru. Wednesday. I'll even go so far as to say that the vast majority of us will NEVER really know "who did what and when"!! More than likely, a whole bunch of rumors will start to circle around filled with half-truths and lies. And I'll wager that some NPS Office of Counsel has already been in touch w/ Lober or Link to access the NPS's liability. Like I said, "just my two cents worth".
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:06pm PT
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ENOUGH with the long winded, butt kissing formalities everyone is posting..Can't we say what we mean without being so extremely worried that someone may be offended? Did Sar mess up? How so? How could a rescue have been initiated sooner in this circumstance?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Oct 28, 2004 - 03:39pm PT
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Here's what I mean...SAR didn't mess up. They did nothing to endager anyone. They only helped.
No one who was in a position to help but did not has any grounds for criticizing or questioning anyone but themselves.
If you feel that climbers should be responsible for the well being of other climbers, then start that cycle of responsibility with yourself. If you feel that the governement needs to regulate the safety of climbers by monitoring and preemptive rescue, then I guess I have no common ground with you to discuss the issue.
If we want to learn from this tragedy how to keep ourselves safer next time, we should look to the positives and negatives of the climbers' experiences rather than the SAR effort. When we climb, we should be responsible for ourselves, and then be only deeply grateful if and when we need help and someone puts themself in harms way to offer any amount of it.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 10:20pm PT
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I would like to offer up a comment about SAR. I run the SAR team for the NPS in Joshua Tree. We go by JOSAR, and we are an all volunteer team.
One thing you need to understand is that rule #1 of SAR is "Never become part of the rescue". While I wasn't there for the incidents, I can assure you that the NPS was not about to let their people risk their lives anymore than nessacary. SAR is plenty dangerous without all the nasty weather these folks had to deal with. If a SAR member gets injured during an incident, it just makes things all the more worse. You now have to draw resources away to deal with the "new" incident. Things can get real messy fast. The same applies if well intentioned members of the public try to get involved on their own.
Go easy on the "why didn't they do X" talk. It's hard on everybody when we lose someone. We had a very unpleasant search this summer for a 19 year old kid who got himself into trouble. We searched for 8 days only to have the kid show up dead. It had a real impact on allot of the team members from all the different teams and agencies involved.
Sometimes unpleasant and unpopular decisions have to be made. It's just the way it goes.
My hat is off to the NPS and the members of YOSAR for an impressive job under misearable conditions.
Robert Fonda
Joshua Tree CA
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 11:02pm PT
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Not that I know of. Maybe a long lost relative I don't know about!
Robert
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 28, 2004 - 11:36pm PT
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Sure, the email is fine. Send them along. Anythings possible. I'm assuming you're talking about the ranger Rosie down here in Josh. I'll tell her you said hello!
Thanks, who knows, maybe I'll find out about another side of my already dubious family ;)
Robert
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 29, 2004 - 05:46pm PT
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I agree with Melissa that SAR did a very good job; really as good as could possibly be expected, given the unusual combination of circumstances, and following their well tested protocols of not initiating a rescue unless it is clear that one is needed.
By "combination of circumstances", I mean:
unable to use helicopter due to severe weather
poor visibility during storm
multiday storm (climbers with good storm gear are wet)
weather forecast changed rapidly
team very high on wall and hard to see in corner system
partial language barrier (may have made it difficult for
team's friends on ground to contact SAR monitoring people)
Q asks some reasonable questions. As Werner pointed out, the climbers on El Cap were monitored. Of course, when visibility is minimal during a storm, monitoring will not be possible. Q asked what signal is used to indicate a rescue is needed. The way I've observed it in the past is that the SAR monitoring person uses a bullhorn to ask the party if they need a rescue. He/she asks them to move their haulbag to indicate "Yes" in response to a question or two. So communication is possible if there is sufficient visibility (there was no visibility during the critical part of this storm, as I understand it). For example, one November I was climbing the East Buttress of El Cap, and late in the day I heard John Dill on the bullhorn: "Party on Zodiac, there is a winter storm warning for the next 3 days. Move your haulbag if you can hear me."
Pete asked several questions, but most of them can be answered by referring to previous posts on this and related threads. Still, I might as well summarize, in case other people are unable to digest all the posts.
>was SAR unaware of them until it was too late?
Yes.
>did nobody notify SAR in time?
Obviously not, since "in time" implies time to make a successful rescue. The problem here is that during the window in which SAR could have put people on top (before Saturday night), no rescue was yet needed. After Saturday night, people still did not know if a rescue was needed, because visibility was bad.
Probably the only chain of events which could have saved the people on the Nose would be if (1) they were in radio contact with their friends on the ground, (2) they asked for a rescue on Sunday, and (3) their friends on the ground communicated this to SAR.
>were they obscured from the sight of SAR by clouds or corners?
Yes.
>did SAR elect to wait until the heli could fly to the summit before commencing rescue efforts?
No. The ground team started Tuesday at 4am (in the continuing snowstorm), as Werner posted.
>when did rescue efforts commence, and was it too late by then?
Tuesday 4am. Yes, it was too late for the Nose people. Not too late for the others on El Cap.
>didn't their friends contact SAR?
I don't know, but apparently not, or not with sufficient lead time.
>if rescuers couldn't fly up there, then why didn't someone go up the East Ledges ropes or hike the Falls trail?
The ground team hiked in on the Tamarack Flat trail. The East Ledge ropes are unusable in a storm (think about it - snow and flowing water on the slick slabs, the 1200' ropes would have to be hauled, etc. - would be ridiculous), and the Falls Trail is not as good as Tamarack Flat (extra elevation gain on Falls Trail).
>if SAR was unwilling or unable to get up there, why didn't anyone say anything to the dozens of climbers, like myself, who were wandering about the base of the crag or through the meadows to see if anyone else could help?
SAR is certainly willing and able. They just did not know that they were needed (until it was too late to save the Nose party). I believe people were recruited as load carriers.
As others have implied, it might have been possible to save the Nose climbers, if there was a "premptive rescue", i.e. if a rescue was initiated before it was clear that it would be needed. But as Robert Fonda pointed out, this is against SAR policy for good reason, because it puts rescuers at risk, when there are no "definite" results to be gained (only "probable" or "possible" results).
For example, SAR member Jack Dorn died when he walked off the edge of the Falls Trail during a night rescue. And Jason the Navy SAR person on the Braille Book shorthaul rescue a few years back was badly injured when he was smashed into a tree (the victim died at that point); even worse, the pilot attempted to jettison Jason and the victim when his instrument panel indicated power loss, but the safety rope prevented the jettison; the entire helicopter could have gone down).
Even if a team (of sufficient size, with the necessary gear) was put on top in advance, if they did not know the Nose climbers needed a rescue, they would not have been able to help. SAR could consider having a cache of rescue gear (such as a 1200' rope, edge rollers, etc.) in place on top of El Cap, but you still have to get a team up there, and they have to know where on El Cap a rescue is needed. So having a cache might not be very helpful. It might speed up a ground party some, though. I'd be willing to bet that a rescue cache has been considered by SAR already, and not pursued for the reasons above and for better reasons.
To solve the visibility problem, in theory you could send someone down on a 1200' rope to Camp 6 to check on people, assuming we know someone is in that vicinity. Again, it is rather high risk, for only "potential" results.
Bottom line: it was an unusually bad storm and combination of bad conditions. Probably we will not see anything similar for another 20 years or so. If SAR puts a team up on top in advance of every March, April, October and November storm, when climbers are visible on El Cap, most of the time they will not be needed. And some SAR lives could be lost in the process of doing all those trips.
So I think that we have to be willing to accept that sometimes people are going to die on El Cap in a bad storm, because we could lose even more people trying to avoid this.
Camp 6 on the Nose is a bad place to be in a storm. This is not the first death to occur there (David Kays, April 1980, see http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/elcapd.txt ). There have also been several close calls there, when multiple parties were saved by SAR. I would not want to be there after a wet night, with snow coming down. The theoretical "rule of thumb" I have in mind for self rescue is that if you spend one wet night (i.e. your sleeping bag is wet), then you go down the next morning unless you know for sure you can top out. That is, you avoid at all costs a second wet night. But this is theoretical; I haven't actually been in this situation on a wall. And what would you do if your partner is partially incapacitated and might not be able to rappel safely? Or what if the rappels are complicated or conditions bad enough that it might take more than one day to get down? It might be safer to wait for the storm to clear, or to wait for a rescue in some cases.
Clint Cummins
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jjslz
Trad climber
San Jose Ca
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Oct 30, 2004 - 02:09am PT
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The bottom line is this: the only ones responsible for these two deaths are the climbers themselves. They just had to do stay alive long enough for someone to get to them. Appropriate clothing, synthetic sleeping bags and a bivy sack would have done it.
But for the grace of God go I, but don't blame it on anyone but those responsible. RIP.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 30, 2004 - 10:00am PT
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Link and Werner,
Trust me I meant no disrespect to you or SAR by my earlier question. I believ Pete´s question was valid. I am traveling now, and don´t have time to respond to all your good questions, although I believe they avoid the context this particular circumstance.
1. You guys knew the strength of that storm coming in.
2. You guys know the upper Nose is a deadly location on El Cap.
3. You guys had reason to believe there were climbers up there (I know this because I told Lober I saw them).
So the bottom line is...why did it take until Tuesday afternoon to contact them and Wednesday to reach them after their cries for help? Monday afternoon was totaly calm in the Meadow with prefect visibility (I was there). Why was no effort being made at that time? Timeline here...the storm broke Sat night, so by Monday afternoon they had allready been in a waterfall for two days. How much more suffering does one need to endure before YOSAR decides to help?
These big storms are what you guys are there for, they are what you train for and are compensated for... This was the first one of the season. Why was it three days into it before any action was taken?
I understand that you are asking yourselves the same questions. As many are, even my parents asked me the same question.
I don´t believe these are necesarily questions for Link or Werner who merely take orders and do their best to do their jobs well. I believe they are for the primary decision maker who is ultamitely accountable for the SAR teams actions.
Sorry to be the critic here, but there was one team up on El Cap up there who needed help urgently yet the respones time was obviously not adequate. Questions need to be asked.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 30, 2004 - 11:21am PT
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I support Link and Werner 100% on this one. Even on Tuesday they had to hike 11 miles through 3 feet of snow to reach the summit. I can't even imagine setting up in those conditions and rapping into the void to save folks.
I think these SAR folks are heros that are giving us far more than we are owed. Even if they do make a mistake once in awhile and somebody dies, I don't blame them and believe they shouldn't be liable.
Climbing is dangerous, Go up El Cap without the proper gear, later in the season, and take 6 days to get to Camp 6, you are taking a risk. Sometime you lose those risks. It's not the NPS job to preemptively rescue people or face ultra-hazards because we do a risky sport and sometimes go without the gear we need.
and if climbers ever managed to make such a stink about rescue liability that NPS was pressured to stick their necks out even further, you can bet that climbers would face restrictions and heavy fines in an attempt to mitigate those liabilities. (Must have insurance, must carry certain gear, must have certain training/experience, can't go except in certain seasons) Don't laugh, just anybody can't just hang glide Glacier Point anytime.
Great Job Sar Dudes. Thanks, thanks, and thanks
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 30, 2004 - 11:44pm PT
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Lambone wrote:
>... Monday afternoon was totaly calm in the Meadow with prefect visibility (I was there). Why was no effort being made at that time? Timeline here...the storm broke Sat night, so by Monday afternoon they had allready been in a waterfall for two days.
I see now that my post was not accurate regarding the visiblity. I was drawing some conclusions from Tom Thompson's post (Getting Plucked off El Cap). He described 2 days of continuous rain, then 2 days of continuous snow. But given that Tom was bivvied one pitch below Thanksgiving on Never Never Land, that spot is a big drainage for El Cap, so probably they were experiencing a lot of runoff on Monday, rather than rains which I assumed made visibility bad.
[edit 11/02: the above is not really right, either. I don't know if Never Never Land 1 pitch below Thanksgiving is a big drainage path; I don't think it is. I was thinking instead of Dihedral/Horse Chute 1 pitch below Thanksgiving; that is definitely a drainage path. I was there a couple of years ago when the clouds were gathering and I did not want to be there, jumaring with a broken finger.... Maybe a bit too traumatic to think clearly anymore? :-) ]
I don't know the answers on the timing of when the rescue was started. But I think if the Nose party was not yelling for a rescue on Monday, then you do not initiate one. It seems likely that the continuous snow took people by surprise (both the climbers and SAR).
In hindsight, sure, it would have been nice to have a SAR team on top on Monday. But it would definitely be in the "preemptive rescue" mode. On Monday, if snow was definitely forecast for Tuesday, it might have been helpful to communicate that to the parties on El Cap. I don't know what the forecast was, or what communications (if any) took place. Even if snow was not forecast, parties on El Cap should know that snow is possible (and could delay a rescue) and if their shelter is not good enough to handle snow, they should try to get down (i.e. on Sunday or Monday).
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zarithzamarialionza
Trad climber
caracas.D.F
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Bueno-Bueno-Bueno...i´m not even in the States now and,i probably have no idea of anything that hapened there...but one thing i know:"never underestimate the power of nature"-the fact that someone is from SAR or Rescue does not mean they are super heroes...besides if a climber decides to go on el cap is mostly under their own risk and.they have to make "a plan" considering even death...I will never understand why humans want to be in control of everything!!....good for those who worked on the rescue,good for those who were saved and God blessed those who had to go..
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CaryClimber
Trad climber
Cary, NC
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I do not think this public forum thread is the best place for many of the comments about the rescues in Yosemite and the deaths of 2 climbers. I have tremendous respect for the skills and experience of the climbers in this forum that have asked the questions and posted the comments. However I do not think the cost is worth the gain.
I have not done wilderness SARS work and I am relative “newbie” when it comes to rock climbing. I am a volunteer EMT with a squad that runs more than 6,000 calls a year. It is common for us to have patients die while we are treating them. There is a profound psychological impact of a death on a rescue worker or volunteer.
I would suggest that in the future someone who wants to comment on a rescue first contact the SAR team involved. Ask if you can contribute to the team’s process for reviewing a rescue and capturing the lessons learned. You can contribute your expertise in a more private, constructive way.
For anyone involved in the rescues, please let me know if you would like any information on handling the psychological impact of a death. I will see be glad to see what information my squad has available. My email address is DannyMcCracken@Earthlink.net
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