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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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Aug 14, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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while climbing at Index, WA this guy walks up to us and looks at the guy i'm belaying and says "that guy is climbing a 5.12 in a swami! who is that guy?"
swami falls aren't bad with double ropes
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 14, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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Close to 60 feet for me.
One day in the Gunks I logged almost 200 feet of air time...the birth of the Philadelphia Flyer!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 14, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
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Bowline on a coil is how I learned to tie in; abandoned that for 1" swami as soon as I could,
but the bowline has still been a good trick from time to time when for some reason you've got a rope but no harness.
Took few leader falls in my bowline on a coil days, good thing because they were often easy routes with lots of ledges to hit.
Longest fall on a 1" swami was about 35' on the Salathe route up on Half Dome.
A few pics:
1" swami, goldline rope, hiking boots. Jeff Genest in Sespe Gorge, ca. 1967.
A year later we'd upgraded to perlon and Robbins shoes; still 1" swami.
John Byrd somewhere in the Valley, ca. 1968.
2" swami was a big improvement. This one was a twin to the one Leslie is wearing in the favorite photo Tarbuster posted earlier.
They were given to us as a wedding present by Joe and Betsy Herbst; Betsy had embroidered them with our names.
What's Up in Boulder Canyon, 1975.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:00pm PT
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Here I thought everyone on ST uses hemp and the bowline
on a coil. What have we got here, stealth kids?
I do find rappelling on a swami gets easier if you back it up
with a new technique called the dulfersitz.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 14, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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Chiloe,
That is a very interesting angle you have there on What's Up, is that photo taken from rappel?
We started with the one-inch swami's too. Some of the wraps always seemed to tighten up too much around the waist and get a little constricting, while the slack would gather at the wrap with the knott and hang down like a loop. Pretty goofy.
Next up for me was the Whillans harness, which seemed like too much stuff, then the 2 inch swami felt like an improvement with a really nice snug comfortable fit and it provided an aesthetic minimalist tie in which was all about not falling as has been stated above.
Can you still buy a butt bag?
In 1981 I guided the east face of Washington column, leading every pitch free. I had two Navy SEALs in tow; Dag cleaned the entire route, while Jimmy free jugged every single pitch. They said it was way more exciting than killing guys, but that's another story. I wore a 2 inch swami, but I had this really cool three point belay seat made by some guy in Telluride, whose little sewing operation I believe was called First Lead. It had really short clip loops, not the long ones, so that when you clipped it shut it gathered tightly, I used it only for hauling and it worked perfectly. It was a nice combination, the 2 inch swami for climbing and a form fitting belay seat for hauling.
I used the same set up that year on the Salathe Wall.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 14, 2007 - 03:07pm PT
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That is a very interesting angle you have there on What's Up, is that photo taken from rappel?
No longer sure about this, but I think the photog had just scrambled up along the left side of the cliff.
I was a little bit proud of the lead because it was an onsight in borrowed EBs;
I didn't know the route's name or grade.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 14, 2007 - 03:28pm PT
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Tying in with the rope around the waist on a 5.11 in Joshua tree called Elusive Butterfly:
My all-time favorite 2 inch swami picture,
Ron Kauk on Super Crack of the Gunks:
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Aug 15, 2007 - 04:29pm PT
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50 footer off lieback pitch of El Camino Real, long ago, on final reaching move out of long lieback corner. Lieback crack pinches off on front edge so pitons sounded good going in but were only trapped at the neck, pivoting and pulling out as I zoomed by.
I wound up hanging horizontally above a mountain mahogany bush and ledge staring at partner Bob Kamps, hand pretty bloody from whapping my hammer in the fall. I rested awhile, then went back up, trying to find better piton spots. Not sure I did, as I made it on second attempt without a fall.
Since my ribs and back were OK, maybe we can conclude long falls allow the rope to absorb much of the fall energy, versus the bod. Shorter falls, then, may be the more jolting.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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"I'm guessing only 10% could tie a bowline on a coil"
I'm pretty sure the rabbit goes around the tree, then down the hole. Or is it the other way around? In another life I did some sailing, and learned how to do a bowline around my waist, with one hand. Sailors know knott tricks that climbers often borrow.
I wonder how many thought they were tying a bowline on a coil, and were actually tying a bowline with a coil, i.e. an elaborate slip knott?
Ditto jstan on the body rappel, carabiner brake, hip belay, etc - they're adequate or better, and all but complete novices should know them.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Aug 15, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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Oops. Forgot to say El Camino Real is at Tahquitz, though many probably knew already ...
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 15, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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35 footer off Hair Lip at Suicide. EBs, rack hanging from a 1" knotted sling hanging over my shoulder and lots of youthful enthusiasm. Good stuff. I think the only reason why my lower back never got f-ed up is that I spun around in mid air and slammed onto by back onto the lower angled dihedral below (Hot Buttered Rump?) and slid about 15 more feet. I think that absorbed some of the impact. Of course I was shirtless.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 15, 2007 - 06:54pm PT
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In the mid '70s I took the big one on that Apron route called Tightrope while wearing a swami. Don't know haw many feet but it was a lot. My belayer reeled in a bunch of slack but it felt like I was falling forever. Who knows...maybe 100'? Whatever. I don't really count that one because it was so low angle. Somehow I managed to not tumble. I took the ride in a pair of the original stand up shorts and my EB's. Damn things were smoking when I stopped sliding.
Later that year I took the 40-footer on Jules Verne in Eldo while wearing a swami...twice. Went out a bought a Whillans and returned the next week and bagged it. This time I didn't fall. Don't know if I was motivated by the crotch strap or what. I wore that Whillans for almost 10 years and later reproduced despite having logged lots of air time in it.
Mal
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 15, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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I'm sure there were lots of longer ones, but the original Coonyard Route on the apron scored a 70 foot slide off me in the piton days. Last of the 5.9 pitches, which I think would be about pitch 4 or 5 from the top of Monday Morning. Being off route (how did one ever know?), missed the ankle-breaker ledge. Consequence was, we didn't make Glacier Point that day (that was the plan), but did Higher Spire the next day, so I guess we weren't too damaged.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 15, 2007 - 09:22pm PT
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maybe ten to fifteen feet max
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:49pm PT
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Rich,
I know Kamps usually used a single strand of rope around his waist. I never saw him use a swami, so I'm wondering if Chouinard didn't have the same on his big fall in the Tetons? Or maybe Chouinad was already more into the mountaineering thing and had an early harness of some sort? Wasn't the biggest part of that Chouinard fall mostly a tumbling/slide down some big snow slope? I have a few mental pictures but can't recall now.
In the days of one-inch swamis and single loop of rope around waist, the mentality was to get the mind as far as possible away from the gear and rather focused on the climbing, to rely upon oneself instead of the gear. I felt harnesses made it so comfortable and easy to fall, that it gave certain people a false sense of safety. It almost made them relaxed about the idea of falling, a kind of psychological invitation to fall. I wanted everything to say to me that I had better not fall. I wanted it to be painful to fall, so that I never would (unless relatively near some decent protection).
Also, Rich, I have never heard of tying those swami loops below the hammer holster. Maybe that was the better deal, though I saw someone doing that once and thought it was lack of knowledge or something. Of course I saw a guy chalking up his shoes one day too, and all sorts of other things. A morning, while standing at the start of T2, some guys walked by draped with about 50 big Friends. I asked what they were going to climb, and they replied, "Ruper" (5.8, mostly all fixed pitons), so strange things always were happening and made me turn away in fear and not look, such as the swami under the holster... How was I to know that might be good? Yet wouldn't that change the center of gravity, and in a fall you might be dumped head first?
My thought always was that if I fell I wanted to go feet first and not head first. In the earlier prototypes of harnesses everyone to a man who fell were turned upsidedown at the point the rope caught them, some missing ledges or outcrops with their heads by inches, and there were lots of miracles right before my eyes with people just barely surviving... I hated harnesses. They seemed too easy, and I always only climbed with a swami, even now (but for some cases).
There are a few climbs I have conceded are best with a harness, for example, where if you fall you're out in space, away from the wall, and too far up the pitch to be lowered back to the belay. A little thinking decides those. I led quickly once over the final roof on Country Club Crack, in blazing summer heat, and stopped at that knee lock for a short rest, suddenly realized I was about to pass out from the heat. That was scary, because if I fell I would have been hanging from my swami and too far up to be lowered anywhere. Fortunately I held onto consciousness, but that taught me climbs of that sort might be best with a harness.
It's all in how you own the technique of your choise, how you master it. I can't imagine any climb within my ability I couldn't do with a swami and enjoy it. Every wall in Yosemite I did, every off-width, the Diamond, the Diagonal, climbs in the Black Canyon, Royal Gorge, Lumpy, England, Italy, everywhere I ever climbed were done with a swami, but for a tiny handful (after my mom bought me a harness once for Christmas, not knowing I hated them. I began to kind of like the gift and used it some, on more overhanging routes).
I can't imagine doing any difficult off-width in a harness, as you need to be able to slide upward, without ropes and loopes and buckles and things catching on little knobs and other rough spots or protrusions. It's so easy, as Tar said, to turn the rope to one side, out of the way, using a swami.
My longest fall was on the East Face of Ship's Prow on Longs Peak, maybe 30 feet? My partner, Stan Shepard, was below an overhang and couldn't see me. I had aided up an overhanging dihedral and then started free on steep rock. I was a 14 year old kid, mind you, and at one point hammered in a piton that bottomed out. It wasn't any good, but I didn't want to waste energy trying to hammer it out. So I went on. Then I realized the climbing was too hard, there were no more holds, so I started back down and, forgetting, grabbed that piton which promptly pulled out, and a-sailing I went. As I flew down through the air, I heard Stan yell, "You don't have to yank it, I'll give you slack." On that disconcerting note, and just as the rope finally did come tight (he must have finally realized what was happening), my first finger of my right hand randomly fell through the eye of a piton I'd place and not clipped. I came to a jolting stop, my finger catching me and nearly tearing my shoulder out of its socket. There I was, hanging by one arm extending above my head, and feeling incredibly stupid... and rightfully so.
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john hansen
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2007 - 02:32am PT
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Thanks Pat,,more history for the super T.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2007 - 03:52am PT
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Me on the Nose 1981
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Scout 2
Trad climber
sac
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Aug 17, 2007 - 06:25am PT
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I think a 30 footer on the apron, swami tied to goldline. it seemed like it would never stop streching.
But the one story I remeber hearing around the valley around 79-80 was about a guy on the nose.
tied in to a swami , using the old paper bag, in the middle of the night. thought he was tied in short.
leaned out and took a 50-60 ft fALL OFF the ledge with his pants around his ankels.
any one else here anything like that?
I think I went out and bought a forest harness shortly there after.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 17, 2007 - 09:47am PT
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"I know Kamps usually used a single strand of rope around his waist. I never saw him use a swami, so I'm wondering if Chouinard didn't have the same on his big fall in the Tetons? Or maybe Chouinad was already more into the mountaineering thing and had an early harness of some sort? Wasn't the biggest part of that Chouinard fall mostly a tumbling/slide down some big snow slope? I have a few mental pictures but can't recall now.
1. I find that I can't recall how Kamps tied in when I climbed with him, but I'm almost positive that Chouinard was wearing a swami and credited it with cushioning his fall.
2. I'm also nearly positive that Chouinard didn't have more than a swami, i.e. a harness of some sort; harnesses really weren't on the horizon yet in 1958.
3. Chouinard's fall was the opposite of a tumbler; he fell on an overhanging pitch and didn't hit anything on the way down. He didn't come out of it unscathed however---his piton hammer gouged his leg.
"Also, Rich, I have never heard of tying those swami loops below the hammer holster. Maybe that was the better deal, though I saw someone doing that once and thought it was lack of knowledge or something."
I learned it from Chuck Pratt, who was notable, as a valley superstar, for his kindness to noobs like me. Perhaps it never caught on much, but it made hanging and falling a lot more comfortable.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 17, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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Thanks, Rich. Pratt knew what he was doing. It does seem logical, when you think about it, to have that swami lower (less crushing on the mid-section), though I still wonder if that wouldn't change the center of gravity and make one tend to fall head first or be turned head first when the rope came tight in a fall. But in other actions, apart from falling, it would be much more comfortable, such as leaning out on a belay, or prusiking, or rappelling. I do recall pushing my swami down a bit when doing a rappel with it.
Also yes I've just spoken with Bonnie Kamps, and she says I am right... in that Bob never used a swami. Certainly every time I climbed with him, it was a single loop of the climbing rope around his belt line. I'm sure Hig would confirm that.
And way back when I was beginning, around 1959, in Boulder, there were people who had some version of a harness they'd picked up on while visiting Europe or something. It went up into a type of chest harness deal, as I recall. They were of no interest to me, because I quickly met Layton who had no use for them.
Incidental to all this, Bob Kamps also always climbed in a pure, ground up style. Some people have noted that he got into sport routes later in life, but they neglect to mention he did those too in a pure ground-up style (pure, but for the fact that there were bolts in place on those routes he didn't put up).
Thanks again, Rich, for learning so many things here. I wish I could get a clear picture of that horrendous fall Chouinard took. I think I heard several differnt stories about it. I should have asked Bob... Higgins is onto something, though, when he talks about the rope absorbing much of the impact. It might be a longer fall is more comfortable than a shorter one, providing you don't hit something...
Keven (Warbler), your story of Dale falling off the upper Catchey Corner reminds me of the day (1975) I was with Erickson and Breashears, climbing that route. David was in tremendous shape and was storming up that second pitch. He put in a number one stopper with the thinnest, smallest perlon sling, and up there where it gets steeper, he stopped on a foothold rest. He was fiddling with putting in another nut and had trouble getting it in with one hand. Impatiently, he entirely forgot he was using his other hand to hold him in and let go with that other hand, the silliest of mistakes, in order to get the nut in. Off he flew. That tiny nut held, by a miracle. The real story is the psychic flash I had about him falling. Erickson had taken the belay, and I had strolled over on the ledge to its west end to scope out the rappel anchors for when we went back down. Suddenly I had this "vision" or something that David was falling. I walked the fifteen feet (or was it more) back to Erickson and put both my hands on the climbing rope, reaching as high as possible in order to pull in rope. Erickson looked at me as though I had lost my mind or something, when suddenly David fell. I instantly pulled in a whole lot of rope and with my hands helped give him a perfect dynamic belay. Had I not done that, we speculated, the little nut would have pulled... and David would have gone past up probably a hundred feet, if Jim could catch him before he hit the ground. David was in a one-inch swami. Of course he was chuckling, mildly embarrassed but unfazed, and immediatley went right back up and led it solidly...
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