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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 03:10pm PT
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Yeah, yeah.
What about if you are a woman?
What about if you don't subscribe to exactly the same beliefs as your neighbors?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 30, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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Whoa whao whoa Ronbo,
Yer dead wrong about the three shot burst.
I've watched, in person, in real life, National Guard troops shooting three shot bursts, and EVERY one was dead on target, from decent range , much farther than ten yards. Not everyone can do it, it takes practice, for sure, but it is possible. Over ten yards that barrel is not going to rise much at all in three shots done by a capable shooter.
The ones that shot full auto DID spray all over, and that's what happened to me when I tried a mac 10, LOL, bullets everywhere, but again, watching those guys use the three shot selector so effectively was impressive.
And as for recoil and time, figure 600 rounds a minute, that's 600 bullets in 60 seconds, so knock off two decimal places to get 6 bullets in 6 tenths of a second, so that's 3 bullets in 3 tenths of a second.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 30, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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Ron, Afghanistan still retains it's death penalty for converting to Christianity and the new freedoms for women there have turned out to be exaggerated.
I'd like to think we kicked the evil taliban out and sorted the place out. However it totally looks like they are coming back unless we stay there forever. We've already lost control in most places outside the capital. (not that we ever had it)
So what did we get from even Afghanistan? Nobody inimately connected with 9-11 it seems.
Peace
Karl
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
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true that ron... edit - til i saw karl's post. now i dunno...
and i disagree khanom *in theory* - the strong should protect the weak, defend the downtrodden, etc...in theory.
in reality yes - imperialism for sure. they would have greeted us as liberators but then they noticed what we were actually doing...which was stealing all the resources...
ya know - i'd actually respect cheney and co if they had the cajones to just come out and say what they are doing, instead of lying every time we turn around. admit it was for the money and the oil, let the people decide if they want to be part of the war for conquest and resource dominance. Honest.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 04:07pm PT
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Team America : World Police
"Mohammed jihad, burka burka burka."
"Burka burka."
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 30, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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I get your point, Philo, still it seems it must have been overly deliberate. can you punch that pattern through a helmet by accident?
P-ron- fuq yeah!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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Uh, do you think you're the only one who travels and is 'worldly'. Kinda arrogant, isn't it?
Has nothing to do with why we invaded Afghanistan either. They were protecting someone who had admitted to attacking us.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 06:35pm PT
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Well lets just say that for a change we had a fairly legitimate excuse to (how do I type the rest in the smallest letters possible?) go in and secure a good route for pipelines from the oh-so-juicy-slobber-drool Caspian oil fields).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 07:11pm PT
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At a hundred per barrel we would.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 30, 2007 - 09:25pm PT
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Note the process of LEB-If-Ication starting in this thread.
Don't feed the Crow and the LEB! This Tillman thing is worth talking about on it's own
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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I really think that we had sufficient provocation to go there.
And those videos of Osama and his toadies rejoicing in the carnage of 9-11 didn't help. There ARE evil people that warrant destruction and he is one.
If you don't kick butt on certain occasions you invite further abuse. The fact that we were at least somewhat successful there speaks well of our abilities in a region that has repulsed world powers for millenia.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:04am PT
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What successes would those be long term Ron? After all, Afghanistan offered to have Bin Laden tried for his crimes in a neutral Muslim country. We could have tried that, or if we wanted to be crappy, we could have bombed the courthouse!
Instead, they didn't get Bin Laden, Zawahiri, or the Taliban leader Omar! Who did they get? Nobody important. And they never even secured the country. Even Iraq is far, far better secured that we ever got with Afghanistan, where warlords and the Taliban stll rule outside Kabul.
In fact, invading Afghanistan will cost more western lives over time than died on 9-11 because of the increasing number of heroin overdoses, since opium production skyrocketed after the war. WTF!
Meanwhile, the American public has been presented with precious little evidence of Osama Bin Laden's actual role in 9-11. He first denied it, then we have one video where a guy who only looks a little like him admits it. We're supposed to have captured some guys like Shiek Mohammed (in Pakistan after he appeared on TV) who were more involved with 9-11, how about tracing his actual involvement? Does it still need to be super classified after these years?
I hated the Taliban and supported the Afghan invasion at the time, but it seems we screwed it up by not helping them enough, not securing their country, not getting the culprits and allowng them to become a narco-state. Again WTF, American wimps out invading one of the very poorest countries of the world. Shame.
Peace
Karl
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 31, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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Most of the terrorists who have been caught before their act or right after, have been caught through effective police action, such as in England and Spain. If the response to 9-11 had been an international police effort rather than a bombing campaign we may have caught some, and we would have created a lot less motivation for future terrorists had we not provided the "terror from the skies" collateral damage. There is a lot less money generated from intelligence efforts and international law enforcement than in large scale high tech armaments. Too bad for us that motivated people with donkeys and explosives and time usually prevail over imperial military might.
Peter
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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There is no differnce between an air strike and a car bomb. Only difference is that the airstrike costs a whole lot more than the car bomb. If I kill your family by accident they are just as dead as if I killed them on purpose. If I kill your family intentionaly because they are an acceptable colatoral dammage to get a prime target I am just as guilty as the bomber who kills your family for political reasons. How would you like to be at a wedding or funeral and get killed by a smart bomb because someones third cousin who happened to be there was on a US govt hit list? these as#@&%es make such a big deal out of being pro life but they kill innocent people evey day like it was free.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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If the response to 9-11 had been an international police effort rather than a bombing campaign we may have caught some [terrorists] ...
If we wanted to, we could have caught several of the actual terrorists that flew planes into buildings on 9/11. That is if we wish to believe the reports that the "terrorists" we identified were in fact the ones in the planes. You know, many of those folks turned up alive in other countries (according to international reports).
The current US Administration is a BUSINESS, complete with a massive advertising agency. "Defense" contractors are making a KILLING on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. HEAVY DUTY spin is needed to keep the public in line with the war effort. This way the money can keep rolling in.
Greed.
EDIT: Accountability for Tillman, or another soldier left out to hang?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070731/tillman-friendly-fire/
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 08:04pm PT
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Update;
Lt General who lied under oath "strongly rebuked" and likely to have retirement pay reduced $900/ month.
BFD
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2007 - 08:28pm PT
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edit : Rumsfield is testifying...
another interesting comment on digg regarding Tillman :
"... Pat Tillman's unit was one of the units hunting down Bin Laden in the mountainous border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan. After Bin Laden was cornered in the Tora Bora region, the top brass in the Army had left one pathway out of the area wide open which gave safe passage for Bin Laden and 5000 of his fighters. Once they made it to Jalalabad, Rumsfeld permitted a massive Pakistani airlift to fly in and out rescuing Bin Laden and his fighters. This was reported in New Yorker Magazine by Seymour Hersch.
After Pat Tillman had learned of the US-permitted air lift rescue of Bin Laden, he went ballistic, even having a serious confrontation with his Colonel about the subject. Apparently Tillman was going to use his major popularity to spread the truth about the illegal war and the Rumsfeld/Pakistani Air lift rescue of Bin Laden. It was soon after that that Tillman received 3 shots to the forehead from close range.
watch video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaI9uCw9hU"
Just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it ? wtf ?
edit : and yeah that chipmunk voice prolly should have had a warning...sorry...
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 09:29pm PT
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The possible interpretations over scant data are almost endless. It's all speculation. But it's fun!
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 31, 2007 - 10:11pm PT
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Oh boy, the Truthers are having a field day with Pat Tilman and imagining all kinds of bizarre connections to Bin Laden. Stupendously crass and not surprising. Don't get sucked into this cr*p.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 31, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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LEBby's right. They just tell one lie and when it's discovered they tell a focus group tested new lie. Of course people are speculating and there are rumours out there because we have no venue of truth and can't trust the most lying adminstration ever. Nixon lied less.
I don't believe a damn thing I'm told about these war. They've fairly admitted that they are spending millions on disinformation in Iraq and much spill right back here where they give us disinformation too, just don't admit it.
This isn't speculation. The topplin of Saddam's statue, the resuce of Jessica Lynch, the death of Tillman, we were lied to about all these iconic things, no doubt about it.
We need the heads of this government gone, tried and impeached. They are cornered animals who will be doing anything to save their skins and enough is becoming known to threaten them.
Peace
Karl
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