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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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" he has often called for the destruction of Israel. "
Nope....he basically says Karma will destroy Isreal if it doesn't change its ways.
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To me the parallels between Bush and Hitler are not about whether Bush is as powerful a leader as Hitler, he is not. Instead, they are about how because of our fears and our laziness, we have given away our freedoms.
Bush now has many of the same powers Hitler used to create his hell. I seriously doubt that Bush has the capacity to use them, but perhaps his handlers do, at least some extent. Will it look exactly like Hitlers abuse of power? NO. It will most certainly look different. Evil has the capacity to learn from the past also.
The question is do you have the will to learn from the past. Do you have the will to see that blood does not cleanse blood? killing does not stop killing? It never has and it never will.
The better question today is will the next set of leaders give back the powers that Bush has gotten if we do nothing? My guess would be no. We have to insist that our freedoms be protected or those who are power hungry will step all over them.
Not withstanding Bush. The president now has the power to take control of our national guard without asking our state government. It was originally set up to force the president to ask our state leaders for assistance. This was to protect us from a Hitler type leader. We have given that protection up. Are we too trusting? I think so. Could something happen just like happened in Germany under Hitler? No, not likely. But there are scenerios where more of our freedoms could be taken away from us and evil could be done in our name. Just as it was done in our name with the torture we did in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.
Collective Karma is a reality. If we allow ourselves to sink into the abyss by giving up our freedoms and therefore our control, then we deserve the mess we will find.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
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Finally someone that can "see" a bit farther than just their own self.
Good one Moosie
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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There are a few interesting parallels raised in the article and discussed in this thread but this Hitler/Bush talk is mostly hyperbole and many of the other supposed parallels fall apart upon closer scrutiny.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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"The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livlihood?"
(Gandhi's Collected Works, Vol 74, (1938))
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jul 26, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
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I'll post it again,
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
Just about the driest book I have ever read, like wading through thigh deep molasses. More like a dissertation than a book, but essential reading if you want to understand the german mindset prior to WWII.
This book refutes the standard notion that the people of Germany were led by the nose into a state of homicidal nationalism by a psychotic leader. Rather, Hitler was a product of German society, and many of the ideas that were perculating around in Hitlers head were also common in German society as a whole during the last half of the nineteenth and the early years of the twentieth century.
I think that the Hitler/Bush comarisons are not very useful. However, I see a lot of parralels in the potitical movements that produced these leaders. Al Gore lays out the arguement very clearly when he talks about the diminished role of reason in our potitical discourse.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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So, the decadant Weimar society was more of the problem that produced the monster in Hitler? Could be. Could also explain why people were duped into believing that National Socialism was a great idea. I mean it sounds kinda nice, huh? Turns out his nationalized socialism was more akin to fascism, but not totally. The guy ruined the whole idea of Nationalism, which basically means pride in your country and patriotism. Call yourseld a nationalist now and your deemed a fascist, Nazi, or bigot.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Fear is a powerful weapon...Cheney and Hitler used it well.
You are giving Bush too much credit here.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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Why are you afraid, Mr D'Antonio?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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Crowley, you really do hate ol' Dubya, don't ya? Imagine if he had never been pres. He prolly would have been a pretty decent guy to have some beers with on the ranch. His ties to the elitist groups are the bigger problem. What you call handlers. These people care not for what you or I think. They decide what's best for 'us'. That ain't right, and that ain't American. That is 'our' biggest problem though, not Dubya himself, the elite establishment.
Geez, now I'm starting to sound like a Marxist...I'm done for.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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Chaz...I'm not afraid at all...I know how to think for myself!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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Fatty, I don't consider you elitist enough, sorry. You're still one of 'us'.
My point was more that the 'establishment' does what it wants regardless of how we feel. Take immigration as an example. Libs and conservatives don't like illegal immigration but nothing ever gets done about it. Almost 3/4 of Americans agree on this issue and they still do nothing. Same thing with the union of the Americas crap they're trying to pull off. They're doing behind closed doors because they know we don't want it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:52pm PT
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Crowley, you need a hug too?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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Hey Fatrad
A long time ago you were telling me that you thought it was ok for the advisory panel for the nations energy policy to be populated by the likes of Ken Lay from Enron and various other CEO's from major energy producers. Do you think that a group such as this would provide conclusions and advice that was in the best interests of the American people as a whole?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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It didn't think you were afraid, Mr D'Antonio.
You wrote "Fear is a powerful weapon...Cheney and Hitler used it well."
Who do you think IS afraid, since Cheney is using this *fear* as a weapon?
A year or two ago when this *fear* subject came up, I asked a bunch of people what caused them *fear*. With one exception (I'll get to him in a minute) NOT ONE PERSON was fearful in the least.
Americans aren't chickens.
Maybe you move in a circle of fearful cowards, but I doubt that too.
The ONE person who admitted to being fearful was afraid he would be re-incarnated into a penguin in his next life. He had just seen a movie about the plight of the penguins and he didn't want to have to go through that.
It seems to me this "Fear...weapon" exists only in your imagination.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
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Chaz...where have you been the last 6.5 years?
Fear of Gays
Fear of terrorists
Fear of the left
fear of hillary
fear of WMDS
fear of bin laden
fear of god
fear of living
fear of dying
fear of losing our way of life
fear of saddam
fear...fear
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:25pm PT
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LEb admitted not long ago that she didn't mind giving up personal rights in order to be safe from WMD. The Patriot act was passed because most Americans were afraid of another attack. Most Americans wouldn't admit they are afraid. They don't even understand the emotion.
I aint afeared. But please take all of my rights away so that I can be safe.
Weren't you one of the ones who was worried that terrorist would get away if we gave them a fair trial? Worry is a form of fear.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:38pm PT
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Mr D'Antonio,
I don't know anybody who's afraid of those things (with the exception of some [not me] who are afraid of dying).
Do you?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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Chaz... you can call me Bob.
A good question is one thing...trolling is another. Nice talking to you.
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