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M.Tea
Trad climber
Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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"Reading World War II history is thus worthless ....."
WTF? What a dissapointing comment from a usually very astute mind.
As they say Werner...those that do not know their history.....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Patrick, I don't think it is about glorifying war.
For myself, being over 50 and not yet having fought in war there is a pretty good chance I won't. I consider this good fortune. But those I know who did fight do not view the experience as "glorious." And I don't think that is what Woody is trying to say. But his direct pragmatism in expressing that war is a constant element of the human experience is hard for some to accept.
Would that it were not true, eh..?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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Patrick,
what say we celebrate the more noble exhibitions of people placed in stressful situations?
Don't we do the same as climbers?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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A recent book by Niall Ferguson offers some challenging insights into World War II. It's called The War of The World - well recommended, though it embeds the 1939-45 (or 1936-45) conflict in the context of the wars from 1914 onward.
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Miwok
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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Didn't this start as a book review of sorts. Now we have armchair generals speaking out about combat. Too bad about what WBraun said, he does seem like the voice of reason around here at times. Strange....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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I had trouble wading through Ferguson's Empire finding his anglocentric perspective a bit predictable perhaps.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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I have read a few accounts of the battle of Leyte Gulf and it sounds like this book is another good one--I'll have to check it out. By the way, my father fought in that battle as an F6F Hellcat pilot in AG-20 off the USS Enterprise.
Curt
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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Well SNP I don't know if the armchair comment was meant to include me but I mentioned several reads. Although my library includes far more, like you I'm a military history buff too.
Were that we had the wisdom to glean all its lessons.
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Miwok
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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Sorry Ron I didn't mean to come across that way. I served in a FOB in the Marine Corp from 89 to 90. Those "peace keeping" and combat experiences tend to make me ignorant and pissy when I hear others speak without practical experience. Regardless I meant no disrespect.
Stupid Spartanlike pride of a brotherhood once and still very much respected. Don't think I'll ever shake it.
Speaking of which
Gates of Fire - Polynikes is my hero.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 20, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
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I have a warning regarding the website mentioned above: http://www.bosamar.com/
Don't go there unless you have more than 4 hours to kill! It is a wonderful website, written with great authority and background work, and really gives you a feeling for what the Battle of Leyte Gulf was about, esp part III of this four part battle, the Battle off Samar. A group of US ships attacks a much larger Japanese force, with little hope of success, but wins. Great courage, great read. Thanks for the link.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 07:55pm PT
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Woody: Beyond all the above, war is the great drama, the greatest of all dramas...
That was then, this is now. It's the nuclear age now, Woody. War is no longer the same old thing.
"Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind."
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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I don't think anyone on this thread intends to glorify war, but just in case it is not clear: I do not intend my comments here to glorify war. I have not interpreted anyone else's comments to glorify war. War is horrible, as you can read from the huge loss of human life and immense suffering, both Allied and Japanese, in the Battle of Leyte Gulf.
It is important to study war, so you can realize how horrible it is, and then you can stand up against brainless leaders who have NOT learned the lessons of history and go off doing stupid things like invade Iraq (no need, false pretenses, etc). Studying military history is not the same thing as watching a John Wayne WWII movie. George Sr. (navy flyer rescued by submarine off Ichi Jima) should have taught George Jr. better! (Flyboys is a great book, I keep a copy in my office to loan to patients, as well as a self-published book by my uncle, who was captured at Corrigagor and spent all of WWII as a POW.)
Edit Werner, we need to study the mistakes of history so we don't repeat them. We should not glorify war: that is sick. I take no pleasure in the deaths of thousands, but do take inspiration from the acts of personal courage and strength, both in climbing TR's and in military history.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 09:44pm PT
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You guys need to study. .....
One of the biggest battles in human history, the battle of Kuruksetra. In this massive battle that would last 18 days, 640 million soldiers were slain.
Modern WW's are directly related to the karmic reaction to large scale industrialized animal slaughter (especially the mother of the earth the cow and the father, the bull), which is fueled by sense gratification of the body and tongue.
That's why I said your history is worthless.
You'll never believe though .........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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I think I've heard of this Werner.
Wasn't "the Battle of Crusty Sutra" an episode on the Simpsons?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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Wasn't "the Battle of Crusty Sutra" an episode on the Simpsons?
LMAO
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2007 - 12:01am PT
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So
In the World Wars the mothers prayed to God to bring their sons back home alive.
When this did not happen they became atheists and cursed the Lord.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 21, 2007 - 12:22am PT
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According to Wikipedia only 10 survivors from 4 million combatants
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M.Tea
Trad climber
Utah
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Jul 21, 2007 - 12:45am PT
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The history of mankind, is simply a history of war.
As far as wars 5000 years ago....seems easy for interpretation over the years to up the scale to prove the point..this is how stories become legend...the human tendency to imbelish. I find the history of all war fascinating (not glorifying)...from the Peloponnesian to present...as generally, the lessons learned die with the generation involved, and we are doomed to repeat the scenario. If not...why didn't Kuruksetra end it?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 21, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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Amazon keeps dinging me with ads for this one: "America's Fighting Admirals: Winning the War at Sea in World War II" by William Tuohy. Anyone know if it is any good?
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john hansen
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:21am PT
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How about "With The Old Breed" by EB Sledge..
My father joined the navy dec 18 1941 at age 17 and got out in oct 45.
Was on the "Gambol" a minesweeper in "The Slot" at Guadalcanal. They sank a japanese sub. He was later on CVE escort carrirer. He was in many engagements including Iwo Jima and Okinowa. Survived the 44 typhoon.
He never talked about it but did write a 120 page book about it for his eight kids.
The amazing thing when you read his book is all the battles he went thru, kamakazi attacks and seeing other ships literally disappear before his eyes after being hit.
One funny story he told was about a night of drinking in Bremerton Wash., comeing back to the base and going into the wrong barrack and kicking some guy out "his" bunk. When he woke up the next morning he found out he was in the wrong bed.
Fortunatly these guys had never been over seas and saw all the battle ribbons on his well worn uniform. They had cleaned and pressed his clothes and shined up his shoes out of respect for this "old" veteran.
When he got out , he still had not turned 21....
I have respect for all veteran's but particularlly that generation.
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