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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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I've been looking around at threads, and the last 8 or 10 I've gone to have been utterly ruined by the ants coming in with their little minds. I'm hard-shelled enough, but it keeps me from wanting to post anymore on those threads, which started out good.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 17, 2007 - 02:13am PT
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I've been reading, and sometimes contributing (?) to SuperTopo for a bit more than a year. It's a bit of a rough and ready place at times, but for all that there's still lots of interesting and useful and even poetic things to read. There's certainly some dross, but there is a certain community ethos when it comes to truly out of line behaviour. Most of those who have a tendency to post non-climbing things know that they'll get a short hard tug if they seriously misbehave. A few learn the hard way, naturally.
Sometimes it can be a bit disheartening, when the bad posts start to drive out the good ones. (An adaptation of Gresham's law.) But it usually comes around.
When the silly try to highjack a thread, or start flaming, I've found that sweet reason isn't a bad response.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 17, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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pat-
welcome to the reality that is the ST forum (which i affectionately call 'stupidtopo'), where no good thread can last.
in a way it's just like climbing, once you are familiar w/ the terrain, you are more adept at spotting the good holds from below, and avoiding the choss that sometomes clutters even a good line.
my prediction: a few short years from now, your newly hardened shell will have a green hue (some might say that it looks like jade), and you too will become dismissive or impatient w/ such offenders as those you describe.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:54am PT
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After all the years of furiously doing whatever, it really is interesting to hear what people have to say. You begin to appreciate why the times were so creative. It was sometimes messy then and as people create things here, perhaps we should actually hope for more of that turmoil.
The exchanges of " Did". "Didn't". "Did." don't seem to lead anywhere, I agree. In time we may learn not to do that.
On the other hand after I posted some bunk Peter Haan let me have it. After just one more go-round we each very clearly appreciated the other's concerns. More clearly than we would have had I not said what I did. Our path to greater understanding often goes we know not where. Peter was a powerhouse back then and he has not lost so much as one step off his pace.
Decades from now when Chris is wondering whether we actually managed to build something on ST, I would hope he goes back and reads some of these threads. Awesome.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:13pm PT
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Censorship can be an oppressive tool and could drive people away from a serious forum discussion. But obnoxius and silly posts, especially those made with disruptive intention, serve to reduce a discussion to the banal and inane. Possibly, the deletion of certain posts by a conscientious moderator could be justified if such posts are obviously against the grain of a particular thread.
The obvious problems; getting individuals to volunteer as moderators and keeping them involved, and establishing some venue of concrete principles for defining when posts are outside the relevance range of any particular thread.
Given the wide variety of thread content, a particular post could be permissible on some threads but not on others. Interests vary and some individuals want fun threads while others may seek technical threads, or political, religious or historical threads. The flaming threads will go on, even though the flamers tend to go into intervals of flaming fatigue.
Would most ST-ers find censorship justifiable on threads of serious discussion when any particular post is outside the content and range of the thread and has an obvious disruptive or flippant tone? I doubt if that would be accepted, here, but when the chaos becomes overwhelming, members whom you want here, will shrug their shoulders and leave.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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some people are more sincere and interested in excellence than the masses - Oli I hear ya and you got my vote but it won't change. You can go the distance, dig deep and write like a god - but they will still sh*t on you, here on the ST. Oli, I hear you completely.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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I really appreciate the replies. They keep me thinking and wondering. I appreciate, John, that people can come to blows and then work things through. That's a good process. But then you and Haan are a little more rational than some who are the offenders here. No one has a problem with debate or different points of view. And I have no interest in "censorship," as I have said before. I would never delete someone's post who simply disagrees with everything I say. But I don't think it's censorship to deny pure inanity. One could draw a few parallels perhaps. We all enjoy freedom of speech, but would it be a violation of that right to gag (or drag away, i.e. remove) someone in some kind of meeting (congress, church, business, whatever...) who stands up suddenly screaming profanities that are tied to no purpose or end and are apparently not about to stop on their own? It's one thing for a certain individual to intrude with an offensive or pointless remark. We see they're not happy. Point taken. It's another for him or her to keep going at it, irrationally, leading the topic entirely away, wasting everyone's time utterly. But people will question who I am to make that call. I couldn't give the answer. That's why I suggest we give the author of the thread that call, although I'm not insisting on anything, just thinking aloud (so to speak).
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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one point is that it takes time and effort to create a sincere and constructive thread - one the community here can be involved in and appreciates.
but the ant vomit sure takes away that motivation.
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Ricardo Carlos
Trad climber
Off center, CO.
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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(it's just cleanup to get those off. Not censorship)
Oli
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck well?
Oli
please keep writing and let the moles pound sand!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:42pm PT
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I used to be an avid user of a Projectionist forum. There were a couple of key guidelines, however. The biggest difference I saw in this forum vs most others is the amount of respect people gave eachother and how well / quickly people got to know other users.
These may seem strict, but at the time to me was common sense. You had to have your picture, used as an avatar, and you had to use your real first and last name. You knew who you were talking to, people thought twice about saying something offensive, and most importantly is you would weed out anyone looking to stir the leaves. There is always the worry that someone would make a john doe, it sure wouldnt be hard, but if it didn't have a small amount of anonymity, it wouldnt be the internet :D!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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RE:
"Oli
please keep writing and let the moles pound sand!"
in this wish we are unanimous - but I know from experience it's not easy to be creative and feel like sharing w/ a bad taste in your mouth.
that we might not see anymore of "the best of Oli" bugs me, and should bug others, too.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2007 - 12:11am PT
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Thank you Ray and others. You are kind and the very type of people that draw me to this forum.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:16am PT
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Ants, moles and worms.
And then there's "Rascals" like me, Hee Hee Hee
To make us all think in all different directions :-)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:36am PT
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"but when the chaos becomes overwhelming, members whom you want here, will shrug their shoulders and leave."
AMEN
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jul 18, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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I too agree that it is frustrating when comments are posted which are totally unrelated and ruin the flow of a good thread. But I would not change the structure here in any way. I really appreciate how all threads here are mixed together. On other sites, they are divided up by topic category. But with this method, I end up reading lots of interesting stuff which I would never have even looked at before.
I enjoy seeing when one of those trolls slowly comes around and starts to talk about climbing. Our most infamous recent example really has some good stuff to say when he actually comments on climbing.
But as refreshing as it sounds, I really think that being able to delete individual posts would ultimately be a very bad thing for us and lead in a negative direction.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jul 18, 2007 - 05:13am PT
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This is a great thread and the kind of discussion that keeps me reading supertopo. Even though this has been discussed and hashed out before, it is still a challange. How do we deal with Choss? How do we deal with people who not only disagree, but are rude and repetitive and noisy? I think it is a fascinating problem. It is also a huge problem in society in general is it not? Especially in a somewhat free society.
Sometimes I listen to the Board of supervisors meetings on the radio here in Fresno as it is on a station that I listen to a lot. There are certain individuals that speak, but can't really express themselves, but want to speak and have the right to talk for a few minutes before the board. People present grievances and concerns at times so ineffectually and confusedly that it makes no sense and I sympathize with the board members having to listen politely to it.
We are in a similar position here. We are helpless to prevent anyone from posting any drivel they feel like, so we have to smile politely and then ignore it. Or we can try to insult them or outpost them, or we can watch the various strategies that others try and see the results.
Reminds me of being in Camp 4 and listening to some British guy at the next campsite singing wild ribald and totally rude songs. Somewhere else, that guy gets kicked out, and if he goes too late there are those who want him kicked out of there also. What do you do about the drunken partyers who leave a mess all over the place? Call in the rangers? Figure out how to deal with them ourselves?
Thanks, Oli for bringing up the question this time around and stimulating such interesting posts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 18, 2007 - 09:41am PT
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giveing the OP censorship control is insane. You can sugarcoat or spin it all you want but what you are asking for is complete censorship control over your own threads. You say you won't abuse this power but that is unlikly. Certainly you will be tempted to delete some as#@&%e who you don't agree with or just personaly dislike. Even if you manage to to be responsible with this power the next guy will most certainly abuse it. Remember some of the control freaks that were monitors on the old RC.com? Oli, Yours is the logic that dominates the Bush administration. We need these powers because we have to protect you. We won't abuse these powers because we are the good guys..............
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jul 18, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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The good that is Supertopo so far outshines the negative aspects. Like water from an artesian well is pure, crisp and is floavored with the taste of local minerals, and treated water is soft, unnatural and stinks a little but at least it always is the same.....That's the difference between continuing to let ST remain organic and processing the product.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 18, 2007 - 11:26am PT
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yes, Oli - we want you to walk through the knee deep garbage with the rest of us and pretend it's not there. Don't be creative Oli, don't strive for excellence - accept the status quo and join us in our world of make believe.
And, whatever you do - absolutely don't pose a difficult question for group brainstorming because, no doubt, the group will refer to it's earlier training and see only one thing...
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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Here's an idea: show us a moderated Forum that is better than this one.
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