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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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weschrist suffers from a complex. (Does anybody really believe that's his real name?)
He's obviously intelligent, but suffers from the delusion of his own importance.
Best to ignore the twerp lest he lower the vibe of ST. His views are the rantings of a child who has just discovered his own mentality, and thinks it's something special.
-JelloChrist
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:07am PT
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jello yer being mean ;-)
so - does this mean i can retrobolt something in patagonia ? i keep hearing about these bolts...jk...
i think he's got a point with the prediction though, at least here in the usa...i see it as an insurance issue at some point - lawsuits and courts judging one way and boom ! suddenly its an issue on the more traveled routes...i don't agree with it though... i think its case by case...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:05am PT
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looking sketch, sorry for my typo. good catch.
i'm editing my post with a bracket and explanation now.
the word "not" was supposed to be typed in between "should" and "start" so as to read "should not start".
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:15am PT
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Is it me or does it seem ironic that the OP started this thread by referencing a discussion where CRACK climb classics where the subject du jour? Lucky Streaks (only fixed gear I remember were a few slings around horns/flakes/chocks), RR on Fairview (one or two 30 year old pitons that no one clips) and West Crack (one bolt at start and a bolted first belay). Yep, all crack climbs that masses are lining up for, all climbs that everyone seems to enjoy and that no one seems to complain about (except when there are slow parties ahead of them...).
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:22am PT
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huh. Maybe I'm not concerned because I'm a relative newcomer (6 years in the game) and things don't seem to have gone to hell yet. Here's my take, boiled down:
The gymbies healyje fears will all be gone from climbing in less than 3-4 years, hardly enough time to really get out there and retrobolt everything.
Those with 5 years in will either be way into sport, which isn't really served by retroing most trad climbs, or develop the appreciation for climbing history and/or quality gear routes.
The sky ain't falling.
There will always be a chicken bolt here or there. There will always be climbers willing to do something about the chicken bolt. That's why I like climbing, let's just say that one of the appealing things about it is what I'll term the 'dingus anarchy approach.'
No rules! Keep it that way!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:59am PT
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It's not the 0-3 years the vast majority are 'climbers' I worry about - it's the folks who climb longer, buy a drill, and are bent on providing that tidal flow with fresh meat in a selfless spirit of 'community service'. Now maybe you think no fresh or recycled meat is being served, but posts here and elsewhere clearly demonstrate it is and at a fairly relentless pace where it is not closely regulated by land managers or private land owners. Or is it your contention that those thousands of drills are languishing in silent disuse...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 11, 2007 - 10:17am PT
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Adding bolts to all those old moderate scary routes bothers me. I am not a very good climber, but there were a few times where I had to reach deep within myself to climb one of those moderates that was near my technical limit, and that was what I strived for. It is those times that are etched into my head. Like Superpin in the Needles of South Dakota. Not a hard climb, say 10b. But if you are a gymbo 10 or even 12 climber it takes on a whole new meaning. My understanding is that even that route had an added bolt and I feel bad about that. I probably would have had the gumption to do it without that added bolt, maybe not.
But the point is, I had to reach into a place inside that many sport climbers dont reach in order for me to succeed.
It is a different game where the stakes are high, but the feeling of accomplishment the knowing that yes, you really climbed 5.10 (or whatever).
I like clipping bolts too, its fun. But when you have to reach inside to make moves with high stakes, you tap into a place that you cant tap into any other way.
Those who say that this type of climbing shold go away because it is the future is proposing taking the future into a place of sterilazation. Canned adventure with a sure thing where personal responsibility is lost.
Safety through bolts is not a new thing; however, there are more climbers out there that see nothing wrong with making everything as safe as possible. Is there an endpoint to it?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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stzzo wrote: I like the the runouts for the same reasons...
I hear this argument a lot - the "I like the fear". I'd like to share another perspective - one that is *not* stzzo's, but is allied with it, and is decidedly against that of Weschrist.
Personally, I do *not* like runouts with ledge potential. But sometimes I do them anyway. It's my choice to do them or not, based on my own desires. I would not want anyone to take that choice away by adding a bolt, nor would I take that choice away from others.
Here's an example: I recently did a climb in the Gunks called CCK. My first try, I backed off the second pitch, which has a few hard (for that climb) unprotected moves, fifteen feet off the belay. My first try, I also was unsure of which way to go, and the climb was quite wet. Basically, I chose defeat over a potentially serious fall. Last weekend, I went back and sent it - the rock was dry, I had figured out which way to go, and I was ready for the challenge.
There were two big payoffs. First - pitch 3 was as good as I had hoped. It was the whole reason why I had dealt with the unprotected moves on P2. But the second payoff was the feeling of accomplishment at raising myself to the level of the climb. I won't soon forget either one of those payoffs.
Cheers,
GO
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:38am PT
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weschris, could one then not also say that chisseling a few holds here and there to make it easier for people to climb be a valid thing as well? Is you say yes (but don't use them if you don't like the new holds), then what is to stop an old geezer like myself, from taking the 10b you chopped holds in, and chopping more foot holds and handholds to make it 5.6 so me and my buddies can get up it?
You don't have to use the new holds if you don't want to.
BTW, just last night I saw a very interesting thing.
Back in a moment....
BTW, Jeff, sound a little rough there buddy.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Oh, BTW, I agree with the OP's prediction. Glad I get to climb before it comes true.
GO
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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couch- just trolling back at wes a bit. Not my style, I know, but he's successfully bugged me. See his most recent post: sure seems to know it all, doesn't he?
Now back to my more normal Jello-like self. Ooommmmmm...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Goodpoint weschrist.
And all that CO2 you are exhaling...I just visited Glacier NP where all the Glaciers are receeding faster than some of our hairlines due to global warming. Very discouraging to be sure. But exhaling greenhouse gases sure beats the alternative right? Yeah, I am a selfish bastard for thinking that way...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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wes, they've mostly all been retroed already.
Does that make you happy, or satisfy your sense of the direction you'd like to "lead" the climbing community in all your omniscient wisdom? Do you think your "leadership" in this matter will allow your followers a more meaningful personal climbing experience?
Runout climbs are not just good self-discovery moments for the first travellers, but for the 10th, or 100th, or 1000th as well. On the other hand, there's not much introspection required for either the 1st or 1,000th ascent of a sport route. Good clean fun and exercise, though, I'll grant you that.
-JelloQuestions
EDIT: AC, wasn't Agent Orange we used to use, it was Napalm.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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weschrist, I'm still laughing at your "Deal with it" argument, because that is exactly what you are avoiding by arguing that retrobolting is good. You don't want to "deal with it," so your answer is to make sure you don't have to.
You fail to see that many people climb to see just what they can deal with, how far they can push themselves. Not everything in this world needs to be comfortized. But then again, I don't really expect that you will take the time to try and understand that.
My guess is that you don't successfully lead climbs very often. By successful, I mean you don't walk up to a route and climb it from the bottom to the top, without falling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that you will grab and hang on a bolt before a crux so that you can compose yourself. I envision you are the type to TR something that's close to your limit before you tie into the sharp end.
This is fine, I don't have anything against folks who like to play the game with all uncertainties taken away. It's just that your narrow view doesn't take into account others who like to play a different game.
If you can retrobolt a route, then you can certainly TR that very same route. In most cases, adding bolts to established climbs is lame, plain and simple.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
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I think that most of the run out bolted routes in disrepair that I know of are poor candidates for retrobolting b/c to retrobolt, you've got to get up there. If more bolts could have been reasonably added on stance, they probably would have. And, if someone has paid their dues to get the skillz that they need to get the rope to the top to add rap bolts, they probably won't want too. The last part might be a good reason to not have free-for-all rebolting parties w/ fixed lines (although many of the bolts I've replaced have been on routes that I could only be on w/ more capable leader.)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
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Like a car wreck, you just can't help but look at these bolting threads.
To take that away just because a mob scene of gumbies and assmunches decides to play unilateralism with a bosch doesn't mean they get to make the rules for all of us
In defence of gumbies everywhere, may I say we're not all running around with drills.
There are tons of routes I can't do, but I've never had the desire to manipulate them. Like golsen and GOclimb, I've had the occasion to finally succeed on a route that was above my physical and psychological limits and nothing feels better.
And for the record, there are still climbers who start out trad. OK, not a lot, but they're out there.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:15pm PT
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For the record, I started out in the gym, as did many of the folks I climb with. A traditional mindset is not something you have to be born into with your times. It is also a position that can be appreciated on its own merits.
In other words, new trad climbers will continue to appear. I just don't know if they'll appear as fast as new sport climbers.
GO
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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that's usually my "et tu, brute" reasoning there, wesC. A 5.8 climber putting up a 5.8 route will *usually* put in *many* more bolts than a 5.11+ climber putting up an .8 ...
Also hard to define is "style". According to my trad mentors
"only stance" was allowed and "no hanging, ever". Literally you'd be zoomed to the last no-hands whenever you tried to "take". Kinda like "Gerughty, get your foot OFF THAT BOLT!"
Those fellers thought hooks and batt-drills were the most heinous breach of ethics... They were thoroughly disgusted when I started cragging at Cave, completing the metamophoses to the "dark side".
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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"I think there is enough respect to keep classics intact, but respect is something that is earned. Insisting that your generation has the right to define how a chunk of rock gets climbed is disrespectful and ignorant."
you're consistent wes, and a credit to your generation.
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