Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2007 - 09:04am PT
|
LEB wrote
"Now why did he and his fellow "grunts" get caught and nailed while his complicit bosses did not. It is because in addition to being dishonorable, he was also stupid; they were not. It is that simple."
Note the title of this thread. "Abu Ghraib --Taguba Ordered Not to Look Too High Up" That's why they didn't get caught.
I'm glad that you seem to recant your earlier position that you didn't care if potential terrorists and even a few accidental innocent people were abused in responding to the problem of terrorism. If you were advocating it back that, it's little surprise that the folks in the military, those trained to kill and observing their fellow solidiers being hurt and killed, agreed with you and followed through. I blame them but more so the liars who sent them there.
Anywhere in the world, you can train and empower grunt soliders to kill and torture if their superiors condone it. That's the way it is.
PEace
Karl
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2007 - 09:37am PT
|
Fatrad, Anyone who can look at those images from Abu and lighty pass them off as locker room frat boy antics is a sick, sick, perverted, disturbed individual..
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2007 - 11:00am PT
|
Lois, you seem to be ready to go right along with letting Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney get away with their crimes because there's "not the votes." Why not investigate openly and expose those crimes to your fellow Lois'es out there and see if the votes change?
Peace
Karl
PS Folks who voted for Bush who now realize they made a mistake are not off the hook. You need to "repent" for that vote by letting congress know that you want these guys out before they do more damage. Otherwise you're responsible for the mess we're in. The reason "the votes aren't there" is because the GOP folks in congress feel that their GOP following doesn't want Bush outed.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 09:07am PT
|
TGT You dont have to be perfect but you do have to keep your honor. There was absolutly nothing honorable about Abu G. If you don't have a higher moral standard than the other guy who is to say that they are the greater evil?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
|
more loisification
gacias, pero no gracias
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
|
Lois, you cold hearted ignorant bitch,
What led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib? Could it be that directive this thread is about?
Who wrote and approved of that directive?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
|
lois you ignorant slut
(gosh that feels really good)
you don't see me (or anyone else) posting 40+ times in an 80 post thread.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
|
lois, you aging delusional bitch.
please don't mistake my insulting you for our having a conversation.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
|
It is not so much an issue of who is the "greater" evil but, perhaps ,more that we, the US, should not be an evil, at all.
I gotta give you Props, LEB. You are almost sounding like our Founder Tom "bring the" Paine.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
|
Hey 426,
What you say about LEB would be great if only she practiced what she preaches. But she doesn't and this is what I call her on. She is not interested in keeping high ideals for America. She proves this by not being willing to try and understand the root of the evil and remove it. Case in point. Abu Ghraib. She is happy to get the little guy as who isn't, but she is willing to ignore the root of the problem which originates in the directive written by Cheney's minions. Therefore the problem can persist.
Just as the problem with George and friends can persist because of attitudes like hers in which she absolves herself of responsibilty by saying she votes and that voting is enough. It most certainly isn't enough. Especially when you have criminals in place.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
|
moosie, mebbe yer right but then I have to ask "what have I done for my country", first. No sycophantism wuz intended...
I could have mentioned "death over fingernail" (pulling)-it's easy to catch 'em doing 'wrong', a bit more of a challenge to catch 'em "doing rIgHt"...
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
|
I have only asked her to do what I have and am willing to do. Nothing more.
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 12:15am PT
|
Hey Crowley,
What happened to the Rummy thread? Where'd it go? Thought about a comment, came back and - Wheww... gone!
CJR
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 12:43am PT
|
Hahahaha LOL Crowley
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 01:02am PT
|
Good night Lois
And don't over work please ...... you're a good soul.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 01:10am PT
|
Silly Lois, honest, it's not that you don't agree with us that's frustrating! You keep proving it over and over that you don't pay attention
Lois, You'll want to read this. American "Grunts" are speaking out against the conduct of the war and the innocent victims
from
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/12/2461/
It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances.
That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.
The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. “It’s not individual atrocity,” Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. “It’s the fact that the entire war is an atrocity.”
A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.
This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush’s poll ratings to an all-time low.
Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation’s investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.
Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behavior born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.
“It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around,” said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.
“Every good cop carries a throwaway,” Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.
There were also deaths caused by the reckless behavior of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. “Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean… your order is that you never stop.”
The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.
Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armored Division, described a typical raid. “You want to catch them off guard,” he explained. “You want to catch them in their sleep … You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall… Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You’ll ask ‘Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?’
“Normally they’ll say no, because that’s normally the truth,” Sgt Bruhns said. “So you’ll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You’ll open up his closet and you’ll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it.” And at the end, if the soldiers don’t find anything, they depart with a “Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening”.
Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. “The mentality of my squad leader was like, ‘Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don’t have to kill them back in Colorado’,” she said. “He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist.”
‘It would always happen. We always got the wrong house…’
“People would make jokes about it, even before we’d go into a raid, like, ‘Oh f*#k, we’re gonna get the wrong house’. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house.”
Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003
“I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn’t really know what else to do.”
Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005
“We were approaching this one house… and we’re approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it’s doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it… So I see this dog - I’m a huge animal lover… this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he’s running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I’m at a loss for words.”
Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004
“I’ll tell you the point where I really turned… [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg… An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me… like asking me why. You know, ‘Why do I have a bullet in my leg?’… I was just like, ‘This is, this is it. This is ridiculous’.”
Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003
“I open a bag and I’m trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, ‘Get that f*#k haji out of here,’… our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, ‘You know, he looks fine, he’s gonna be all right,’ and walks back… kind of like, ‘Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic’. So I’m standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy.”
Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004
‘Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find…’
“Here’s some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he’s going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you’ve ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds…”
Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004
“Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat.”
Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003
“I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, ‘A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi… You know, so what?’… [Only when we got home] in… meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then.”
Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004
“[The photo] was very graphic… They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He’s reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling.”
Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004
"We were searching this rural farmhouse and this woman comes out and starts talking our ear off about how we weren't going to force her to think like "one of us" no matter what. She was really annoying and whatever we told her, she did something else. Finally I started to strangle her but the other guys pulled me off before she lost consciousness. I'm really sorry I didn't get to finish wringing her neck. I still remember her name. Lowiz or something. She was supposed to "one our side" A nurse or something"
Specialist Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, 320th Military Police Company. Deployed to Talil air base for one year beginning April 2003
“The car was approaching what was in my opinion a very poorly marked checkpoint… and probably didn’t even see the soldiers… The guys got spooked and decided it was a possible threat, so they shot up the car. And they [the bodies] literally sat in the car for the next three days while we drove by them.
Sergeant Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. One-year from February 2004
“The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population…”
Sergeant Camilo Mejía, 31, from Miami, National Guardsman, 1-124 Infantry Battalion, 53rd Infantry Brigade. Six-month tour beginning April 2003
“I just remember thinking, ‘I just brought terror to someone under the American flag’.”
Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004
“A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don’t speak English and they have darker skin, they’re not as human as us, so we can do what we want.”
Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004
“I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned.”
Sergeant Ben Flanders, 28, National Guardsman from Concord, New Hampshire, 172nd Mountain Infantry. In Balad for 11 months beginning March 2004
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness, by Chris Hedges and Laila al-Arian, appears in the 30 July issue of The Nation
peace
Karl
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 01:50am PT
|
Okay Crowley,
You aint gonna agree, but Engelhardt is wrong in some ways. (And by the way, such long essays are hard to respond to smack-dab since the author probably took three weeks or more to compose, research and edit it).
Maybe the DoD is expanding influence worldwide, but back here, stateside, DoD is still downsizing since the end of the Cold War. Heard of BRAC? No? Look it up. They probably have a good class on it at Cal State Monterey (former site of Fort Ord).
Meanwhile, Congress passed an act (1993?) that required Congressional approval for any DoD land withdrawal (like BLM land out in the middle of “nowhere”) of more than 5,000 acres. Less than 5,000 acres goes to Secretary of Defense (Formerly Rummy). I know of none that were significant under Rummy (a hundred acres here and there?). Most actions were “disposals” where DoD gets rid of land they own that they no longer need. Dixon Radio Transmission Facility near you is one. Skaggs Island is another. Fact is, these old, unneeded facilities and land areas are liabilities for clean up and maintenance, not assets to DoD since they have no useful value to them; if they needed them for their mission, they would certainly try to keep them. “Get rid of them” seems to be the policy, not “grab what you can.” I have many other examples of these, but I will stop here.
Interestingly, I heard a Head Honcho of the Marine Corps give a talk on environmental stewardship; they guy was a general who took a lot of heat from upstairs for his pro-environmental position. Instead of the normal plug, he engaged the Nature Conservancy and other such groups, bringing together mutual interests so that lands controlled and needed by the Marines would have protection from “encroachment.” Normally we think of that as putting your foot over the boundary, but this is the march of LA and humanization to the boundary of training areas where maybe there is a lot of noise, etc. TNC and other land groups focused on the opportunity to join with the Marines to get land around the Base for habitat preservation. A reasonable swap? I think so. Too many details to talk of here, just better natural resources management, and “blessed” by the OSD (Office of the Secretary).
That’s not what Engelhardt implied and what he implied is distorted. I didn’t dig into the weeds of his essay, but I quickly determined he was distorting the facts to make a point, so on I went with something more substantive (like dinner). I agree with his consensus of a US trend toward world domination; however, what is new there? Old news.
As for Rummy, I have no idea what this article has to do with him. He did not have his hand in too many land acquisition projects as far as I know. Perhaps he blew it in other areas, but land grabs by DoD were not his hallmark, were they? Oddly, Don Rummy is a unique person for me. Just like Reagan (and beloved Merle), I disagreed with everything he did and stood by, but as a person, I somehow like him and would be glad if he was my neighbor. I fail to have a good explanation for this feeling since so many people I respect and admire regard the man as evil. But, one does not have to agree with someone to like them as a person.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2007 - 01:57am PT
|
"I agree with his consensus of a US trend toward world domination; however, what is new there? Old news. "
I would bet that the average American has no idea of the extent of our imperialistic efforts. So not old news in my opinion. I would bet that they weren't even aware of the extent of the bases we are building in Iraq.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!