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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jun 25, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
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Dirt, most of the wines you are talking about with "no pedigree" and big price tags are labels that you probably have never even heard of. The ironic thing is that those are now "THE WINES", being made by the makers with ALL the pedigree. Most of the wine makers who made "THE WINES" back in the day have moved on from the big houses and are doing small lot, highly allocated wines, wines that you will never get hands on, because you don't know sh#t about whats out there and whats good for the price point.
Many of the big names from back in the day are fetching top $ on just that, big names.
I personally won't pay 40$ a bottle because I don't have to. You are the guy the industry loves, barkin' loud about swill. They have to do something with the huge excess of mediocre grapes and you are just the type of sucker they are targeting. I have wines given to me all the time and I also get wines at cost(6 or 7$ a bottle for the dog sh#t you're drinkin'), so if anybody is guilty of driving up wine prices in Ca. its not consumers like me, and its not Robert Mondavi, its hypocritical, know nothing windbags like you. Your wine writer pal isn't doing you any favors Dirt, he's probably getting kickbacks from the winery and laughing all the way to the bank. Keep reading Wine Spectator and Wine Enthusiast as your main sources of info and you will get sucked into the politcal vacuum. Buying wine for guys like you is a "craps" shoot and you don't even realize it.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:02pm PT
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edit: Well said Dirty Kenny!
Interesting points of view and opinions here... Some of it makes one wonder just how much some of the people posting here actually know about wine. But, then again, that's how it goes with wine, in general. Always lots of wannabes when wine is the subject.
I don't claim to know a lot or much, but I've dated a wine maker for a few years of my life and have several good friends who are wine makers and claim to respect my palette a fair amount, especially my port palette. With that in mind, I'd wonder how many folks posting can actually differentiate differing flavors in wines? That's the real question. How many people can actually pick up on berries or jams or pepper or woods, or whatever have you in a wine. Once you can do that, it's not difficult to tell wines apart.
I don't think it's difficult, at all, to tell the difference between a really good wine and a bad wine, or even a mediocre wine. Nor is it terribly difficult to tell the difference between a Pinot, Merlot, Cab, etc... (Sorry Karl. And blind taste testing has been done to prove this, as I thought the same when I started dating the wine maker. Her whole enology class did it). It's all really a matter of refining your palette.
And those trying to push the "a $10 bottle is as good as a $200 bottle - the difference is ego or $$$ to burn..." Well, that's just flat out jealousy talking. Maybe you should sell all your A5, Mountain Hardwear, BD, Petzl, etc, gear and hit Ebay for some of those $50-for-a-full-set of cheap cams and WalMart for your fleece, shell, tent, and rain gear, etc... But, then again, how many people are there who own tons of gear that never really gets used too? Lots of wannabes in climbing too, methinks!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:55pm PT
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I drag my gear behind my car to make people think I'm very experienced.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jun 25, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
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Yo Karl, or Karl in Yo, whichever it is, the quality of a wine starts with the grape itself. Yes, the science of wine making has advanced greatly and a great wine maker can manipulate mediocre grapes to a certain extent(drinkable), just as an inexperienced wine maker can make a great wine with high quality grapes. A great wine however, will not be made with low quality grapes- plain and simple. You can soup up a VW bug but its still just that, a VW bug, not a Ferrari. You can drive the f*#ker and think you're cool but you ain't takin' on the race track.
Believe it or not most people who drink a lot of wine (weather its a good thing or not) can easily distinguish the differences between varietals, especially the popular one's, i.e. Cab, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Syrah. It ain't snobbery bro it just a lot of f*#kin' drinking. Snobbery is a personality flaw and has nothing to do with the subject of wine knowledge. Yes, great wines are for people w/ money to burn (wish I was one) or for people who can't afford them but are lucky enough to get them cheap or free. Some of the biggest "snobs" I've ever met are people who claim to be experienced climbers, most of whom are washed up fatso's who couldn't tow there asses up even 5.11 if there live's depended on it.
As to your question: Which would you rather have, a 50$ bottle of wine and a glass, or a 15$ bottle of wine and a lobster? Depends on the bottle. However, if I didn't know the label I'd take neither and settle for four beers or one good single malt- and a lobster.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:26pm PT
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DIrty kenny, god what a blow hard.
Guys like you are a dime a dozen, LOL.
Never drank the good stuff when it was readily available, trying too hard now to compensate. Happy to pay too much cause you never got to pay something reasonable for good wine. Nuff said.
Anyone ever in the wine biz got those deals pal, you think that makes you special? blow me. Been there, done that, Yawn, don't care any more.
It's good you are still in the wine biz, you seem to need a lot of alcohol.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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Jeez, who would imagine a wine appreciation thread would turn into a pissing match. HA!
Since it cost a lot to win
and even more to lose
You and me bound to spend some time
wondering what to choose
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jun 25, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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Spurtineye, "blowhard"? "Blow me"? You are the one with wood on your palate, remember? "Been there done that" - ha! Been there done sh#t. Just like your "climbing career". You are the one dropping big names and whining about prices, ya big fat schmuck. Us "losers" here in Cali may pay more for gas, but we don't pay more (or at all) for wines. Speaking of losers, ever heard the word projection? Still livin' at mommy's house? Guys like you are not a dime a dozen, people at your age (56?) usually have something to show for it, in your case at least a bottle of one of your big-name wines from "back in '78". For a guy who "doesn't care any more" you are sure taking this sh#t hook line and sinker. I suppose you don't care about climbing anymore either because you've been there and done that too - Ha! What a joke! I don't think I'm "special" because I get deals on wine and I know that everybody in the industry gets breaks, but you're not one of them, gramps, and you seem a bit hostle about it. You're a f*#king poser trying to convince the world that you're the sh#t. BTW, loser, run down to Safeway because there's a deal on Estancia, and Mom's making spaghetti tonight - a perfect pairing: Estancia & spahgetti, Dirt & Mommy...
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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Wow! Yet again, the old rule held true. Jude started a nice thread, others joined in with worthwhile info, there was a nice discussion. I'm going to print off the first couple pages, to help my memory when I'm in the wine shop.
Then somewhere around 40ish posts, everything degenerated. Sad.
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Jude Bischoff
Ice climber
Palm Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Spurtineye, "blowhard"? "Blow me"?
What makes you tink we gut uf toopic clmbrrunneer reeider?
Damn fine 900 dolleer veeenteege ear.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 26, 2007 - 07:16am PT
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Jude, it looks like you've been enjoying some of that good wine tonight. Prost!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 26, 2007 - 08:39am PT
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Chaz, you are right, wineries are the best, I love the smell of a winery, though being downwind of the Guinness Brewery also stirs the senses.
Can't you guys just agree to disagree... wine is a very personal thing and taste, so its subjective. Why argue about it, just chill out and have a glass.
And Johnny Hugel's advice wouldn't go amiss among some of you.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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"Yellow Tail Shiraz $4.95 has won 3 different blind wine tastings I am aware of where the rules were bottles up to $20.00. "
Hmmm... Where are you finding YT Shiraz for $4.95 a bottle, Jude? I find it for $6.95 all the time, and at TJ's it like $8.95... That's like a 50% savings!
I don't know about any blind tasting done with it, but I really do like Yellow Tail. I always have a couple of bottles around. While I strongly disagree with Karl and don't think drinking a $50 bottle of wine is a big deal, I can't do it *every* day. Maybe a couple a week is OK. YT's Shiraz is a great wine that doesn't break the bank when you want a bottle without busting out something expensive. At the very least, it helps me continue building my collection, rather than removing from it.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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Wine stories,
1. Shanghai is very international and very modern—over 2000 skyscrapers. One evening on a business trip, I attended a wine dinner at an Italian restaurant. Mostly expatriates from all over. Surprisingly few Americans. It cost about $80 person for the wine and the food. A local wine importer brought in a smallish vintner from Tuscany, and we tasted three wines. The first and second were very good. The vintner told us about his family history—I think they have been making wines in the same soil since 1400—and the particular wines. He was the quintessential Italian—tall, dark, handsome, perfectly tailored, stylish suit. Nice job to be born into. The prices of the wines were about twice what they would be in the US. For the third wine the vintner went on and on about how proud he was of the wine since it had been come from such a tough harvest. Of course it tasted like sh#t. This seemed to be the international consensus. Wine knows no borders. My colleague gave me a bottle of Chinese Cabernet to take home. He suggested that I offer it in a blind tasting. No need, it was quite good.
2. I followed my bride to a conference in Arizona, south of Tucson, just north of the Mexican border. The country side was familiar and beautiful, but I had little to do. So I rented a car and drove around the country side. There are not many roads so I struck out towards Patagonia, a town on a high plateau southeast of Tucson. The little town had a coffee shop with real coffee drinks and daily delivery of the WSJ. I settled into a daily routine, driving 40 miles for a coffee and paper. On the last day we pushed past Patagonia and, rounding a hill, came to vineyards. This was totally unexpected. We sampled several wines at the shared wine tasting building—originally a whore house as are all old building in southern Arizona—and bought a bottle of red, labeled Tubac, like the town and artist colony. It sat at home on display. It was not good but it was drinkable. And it made a nice conversation piece.
3. At a New Year’s Eve celebration a few years ago, my bride and I joined several other couples in a quiet, refined sit down dinner, set on good china, and had quite, refined conversations (I had to practice.) Great folks with great stories, picked up from far and wide. The wines were picked by one of the guests, a very successful retired man who has been chasing wines all over the world, and who now has so many bottles in his wine cellar that he has calculated that he will die before he can drink them all. Personally, I think it is sort of useless to try to solve these sorts of single equations with at least two unknowns—his passing date and his consumption rate.
He brought a very nice, silkly white wine from 1947, (Vouvray, Le Haut-Lieu ), and a very smooth Paul Jaboulet Aîné, Hermitage La Chapelle 1990. The wine host gave us a tour: ...dense, youthful crimson colour. Dark, brooding aromas. Caramel, spices, plummy black fruit and super-ripe.... The party host was very nervous, because in her words, we were the wrong crowd for all the on-sight wine analysis (she was thinking of me.) But it turns out that I have two drinking personalities: one that throws his head back, takes big gulps, eagerly accepts refills, and makes the best jokes and quips on this side of any drunken façade (drunken delusions, notwithstanding), and the other one that slows down, looks thoughtfully in the wine and can just glimpse the taste and aromas being described (social delusions, notwithstanding).
For wines this far up the scale, I sort of expected fireworks, but instead we were treated to all the complexities that the wine enthusiast was alluding to. There is also the issue of getting the right social graces locked in by not drinking too fast, at least not at something like $100 per glass. The jokester had to be subdued.
But there was real salvation in that night of dining and drinking—-the wine host had enough of that fine stuff and a truncated sense of his own time for me to find a perfect blend of my two drinking personalities. By the time we got through the fine ports (Fonseca 1977) and then slipped into the high end Scotchs, I had reconciled my two personalities and reconciled with the old year. A great night and, thankfully, a short walk home.
4. For a big birthday, we and 14 of our closest friends took over a private dining room at a Italian restaurant (Bice’s local establishment). All eyes were on me, since I had organized the affair, picked the menu from the suggestions of the chef and asked the wine steward to pair it all with wine. Because of the size of the crowd, he purchased wines especially for the dinner. What a treat: fine, fresh Procesco to start, with the salad, appetizers, and toasts.
Quick aside, my toast, which I slaved over for a week, worked pretty well:
“I first met M on Saturday, March 15, 1975 at Jeannie and Bill’s in Berkeley.
She was beautiful, smart, stylish, and fun. (Spoken slowly to her and with intensity)
I was thirteen. (In my patented, pre-teen voice.)
There have been a lot of birthdays since then and lots of fun times. But some things never change. (Said to audience.)
I am still thirteen. (In my wearied, slight Southern drawl.)
And M is still beautiful, smart, stylish, and fun. (Refrain)
Happy Birthday.”
For the risotto we had a great Italian red (Sangiovese Intesa Villa Buonesera ’00) and then different wines each picked to compliment the meat (Amarone - Guiseppe Campagnola ’03), fish (Chardonnay Cabreo ’04) or chicken (Cortese Di Gavi-Pio Cesare ’05) entrées. Six hours of a perfect match of friends, wine and food. Of course, I insisted on sampling all of the wines and pretended to be drinking them with careful observation. In reality, I was just throwing my head back, if somewhat slowly to maintain social decorum, and thinking of the next joke.
I passed the host test.
On the way home, I asked my bride if she like my toast. She nodded but added, “I wasn’t stylish when I met you.”
Perfect.
I like wine.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:59pm PT
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Patrick you're right, way too much venom. Sorry people. A glass sounds good but its a bit early in the morning so a double espresso and a day of climbing will have to do-
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
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Well, that's certainly better than the 12oz Red Bull and a day of desk jockeying I face... Regardless, Cheers!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:18pm PT
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Wine story
Used to Date a lady who worked at a fancy enough restaraunt. Came in after closing and the waitresses were gathered around the remnants of what was supposed to be a $5000 of wine that the big bosses had brought in for their special dinner. There was a bit left and we all got some drops to see how the fancy pants rich folks drank.
Very, very vinegary. Looked like some bad luck or bad storage had ruined $5000 of wine! Ouch.
Peace
Karl
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:32pm PT
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Karl, lots of people can identify varietal, region, and vintage blind. It's part of the test to become a master sommelier.
It's like saying all the cracks in Yosemite are the same.
Edit: OK, maybe not "lots". How about "some" instead.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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Wifes BD today.
She's been loosing weight and has been craving "pasta with weeds"
So tonight it was pesto with the Basil and Pepper from the back yard, seconds old, with garlic roasted in good olive oil last night. Served over Linguini and Brie with toasted Walnuts and Asiago garnish.
The wine was an 04 medium priced Chianti. Very good but a bit soft and probably more suited to a veal dish.
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Jude Bischoff
Ice climber
Palm Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2007 - 01:37am PT
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TGT: Shouldn't you be in giving your wife her birthday spankings instead of chatting with us bums. You've got to love those wine sharing kisses but they are never better with veal. LOL
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