Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Interesting thoughts, Coiler.
I climbed Zodiac in '95. Do you suppose prior to the cleanup it would have been much easier in '04? Would there be much new fixed stuff? I guess with nearly continuous use for nine years, the nailing would have to get easier too, eh? Just curious...
|
|
yo
climber
NOT Fresno
|
|
That was beautiful, coiler. If El Cap wasn't an ass kicker, climbing it wouldn't mean sh#t. I've backed off so many routes on the Cap I can't count them all and I'm not embarrassed in the slightest.
Climbed Big Z in '97 and '04, no dif. Did the first pitch probably every year in between and the fixed gear seemed to go in waves. Duh. Memory ain't too great but I can't remember a whole lot changing on the rock (and the first pitch sees way more traffic than the rest.) Gives me hope.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
You can click here to [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68805&start=81"]read the update.[/url] It sounds as though Big Wall Theorists need no longer apply.
Cheers,
Pete [who is as red, white and blue as Uncle Frickin' Sam his-self]
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
read Nurse ratchet's link above... and wonder, did all the fixed pro removed really need to be removed? I agree that chicken bolts, 10 bolt belays, deadheads, and eyeless pins are useless, and should be removed, but what about fixed gear that will need to be replaced with more steel? Seems like fixed gear, even if not original or placed by the first ascent party, helped keep the hammers at home, which spares the rock an unnecessary beating by newer or inexperienced aid climbers armed with a pin rack and hammer. Maybe, now that this "community service" is done Zodiac will again be a pin route, and since it attracts the trade route crowd, will be further scarred. And maybe, I will get a free ascent in 10 years when it turns to hand jams...
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
"Over 100 patched holes, a few belays beefed up, approximately 60 pins were removed, chicken bolts removed, hundreds of nuts, heads, deadheads, fixed cams, rurps, beaks, piles of webbing and duct tape - all weighing approximately 30 lbs cleaned from the Zodiac."
wow, cool.
who's gunna do it next year?
what route is on the "American Choppers" list next? ZM sounds like a good candidate, considering that after it's relatively recent "clean" ascent by Peter Mayfield...it sounds like it's been dumbed down to a clip-up.
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
It's kind of obnoxious to start dismissing an A4 route that one party manages hammerless as "dumbed down" to a "clip up"...especially if you've never managed to clip your way up anything that hard.
|
|
ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
umm ..
.. it does sound tasty .. I'm guessing that right now Zodiac is a harder route than Tangerine Trip ..
 ricardo
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Ricardo - no doubt!
Zed-Em is a funny route - I have heard it described as anything from an A4 loose rock horror show to an A2+ trade route. [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=354"]I made a solo ascent in 2001,[/url] and to me it seemed pretty hard. Click the link and read about how I took a 25-footer after the thousand-pound block I stupidly chose to nail came flying out! I still bear the scars on my left elbow from that one.
I think the rating of a route has a lot to do with how you're feeling at the time. Zed-Em felt stiff as it was one of my usual off-the-couch ascents, yet when I soloed The Shortest Straw it seemed easier than Zed-Em - even though it's supposed to be harder - probably because I had completed Excalibur just beforehand. {shrug}
Both routes have some pretty scary DFU zones, though.
Interesting dilemma about whether or not to remove fixed pins from a nailing route. Zodiac had emphatically been "dumbed down" by the amount of fixed gear, presumably at least a bit of it placed by the Hubers during their free climbing. You don't want to bugger up your fingerhold by sticking a cam in it, when you can have a fixed pin instead.
Removing fixed pins mean other pins need to be placed [and removed] which will necessarily cause further rock damage in the "evolution of the aid climb". Eventually the climb will become C1 like The Nose because the placements will get beat out. In the meantime, the route has been restored to where it "should" be - a proud A3- or so, I'd think.
Leaving the fixed pins in place artificially reduces the rating of a nailing route. I applaud the efforts of the lads.
|
|
ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
|
|
WOW!!! Guess you need lots of heads, a pin rock, 2sets of hooks, some beaks and some rurps and bring a couple of sets of RP's!!!. I hope an american does the route before those foreign guys get there hands on it. The oreintal (sp?) clusterf*#k (like 8 of them) below us when we did Zodiac July 2003 after Ammon and Gabe and Ammon's son (Jose memorial varition to Zodiac) cleaned all pins off the upper section, had a nailing fest below us. Where did all those pins come from? There was not one fixed pin from one pitch below the nipple all the way to the top when partner and I did it? I do remmeber some of the unnessary bolts. I am itching to go climb it again. But gotta wait until next year. What did you guys use to fill those holes in? I hope it wasn't that clear caulk sh#t Beyer used. It looked like he f*#king wacked off after chopping a bolt. Enough spraying for the day. Back to work.
|
|
ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
|
|
OH YEAH ONE MORE THING. THIS THREAD JUST PROVES WHY AID CLIMBING IS SO STUPID AND FREE CLIMBING KICKS ASS. Cheers.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
Mellisa, chill the f*#k out you snob I was being sarcastic.
Ricardo,
RE:"I'm guessing that right now Zodiac is a harder route than Tangerine Trip .."
Zodiac was probably harder before too...more C3 sections at least...
I know Bryan has been meaning to go up there and "clean up" P4 and maybe 5 on T-Trip also...
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
D Piton,
"Eventually the climb will become C1 like The Nose because the placements will get beat out."
I wouldn't say that. I believe the Nose is more naturaly C1, where as sections of Zodiac will probly become more like the Shield- A2 "box scars" that ONLY 1-1/2" inch angles will work in.
Then again i haven't climbed the WHOLE Nose either, so Melissa has every right to flame me for talking out my ass once more...
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
I imagine LurkingFear traffic will increase this fall as it absorbs the parties who were looking for easier clean aid.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
When I soloed Zodiac in 1982, there wasn't much fixed gear and I nailed on most pitches, sometimes a lot. Remember, no aliens, camhooks or cams smaller than a 1 friend.
I went back and climbed it clean in 2002 and somebody must have just cleaned it cause it was tricky to get clean and very little fixed gear. For example, no fixed pieces on the black tower pitch until way high, and the Nipple started with a pin and then no fixed gear until a few feet from the nip.
So I was pretty surprised when later in the season, folks were already talking about mass quantities of fixed gear up there. That's how fast things change. It's possible that free climbers and speed climbers have deliberately encouraged the route to become more fixed, but that's a guess.
When I did the Shield around 1991, the headwall was all fat Lost Arrows. Looking back, I wonder if those clean Lost Arrow scars would have taken cam hooks if I had em. I bet many would have been bomber. It's sad that I hear they are now boxy sawed angle scars only a decade later. I mean, El Cap is almost forever and yet this classic route got beat out that fast. If only we could have started cam hooking the scars before they got so huge, then others in the future could have enjoyed a less blasted trip up that fantastic stretch of granite.
That's why I'm dissappointed that the Krew sees fit to remove fixed pins and heads from Zodiac. Let the damn climb say clean until we have the technology to do it clean without the fixed stuff. Setting Zodiac up for more pounding is a lasting and permanent disservice to the Stone and outweighs the temporary benefits gained by cleaning off the junk which returns in a season.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
I won't flame you b/c I agree w/ you. The Zodiac is never going to be the Nose. Whatever new nailing ensues on the Zodiac, i doubt it's going to create 5.10 pitches out of 5.13 ones...And I suspect nature created more of the 5.10 than hammers on the Nose.
Karl's criticism raises a question for me though...Is it better to let scars develop so that people can climb the rock again, albeit scarred rock, or is it better to let people climb fixed metal which alters the rock less, but perhaps the experience with the rock is altered more?
The route IS going to evolve away from the FA, with scars or fixed metal. I think that the 'best way' is probably somewhere in the middle.
Even if we don't agree on which way is best for the rock, most of us here do seem to agree that we have some entitlement to climb it with one form of dammage or the other (scarring or fixed metal). If these fellers deed makes us think about that, then maybe we'll all be mindful of what we are taking away from nature to have our fun, and try to tread as lightly as possible with whichever mode of dammage we feel is the lesser of the evils?
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
That's a positive spin on it but I can't help but think that the immediate message sent to those aspiring to climb Zodiac in the next few months is more along the lines of "bring a hammer and lots of iron!" as opposed to "tread as lightly as possible".
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
Which brings me back to my previous statement about pin scars. Today's thin clean gear can be used with scars get a bit bigger then, say, Lost Arrows. HB offsets, ball nuts, tiny cams, all will fit when those blade cracks get widened a bit. It's not going to get as bad as other pegboard cracks because the development of gear. The only bad thing is poor cleaning habits by the El Cap noobs. The bottom of the crack should remain as square to the original pin scar as possible. It's when you pound em downward that you get the bad pin scar.
Climbing El Cap is part and parcel with being able to place gear, not clip up something and call it climbing. It's sort of like being a jug monkey and belay slave and saying you climbed El Cap when all you did was jug a line.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
"El Cap is almost forever..."
I love that statement.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
All I can say is becareful on Pitch 8 (above the tower, going into the circle)...
If they removed the fixed beaks and Rups you will be in definate DFU teritory, looking at non-trivial aiding.
|
|
Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
|
|
So you think its going to get bumped up from A2?
Irish
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!