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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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i think nates perpesctive is from the soldiers. a man who has developed skills in the art of killing. a man who has probably similar mindests to someone who trains physically and mentally for a demanding route with the exception that locker provides (killing). but all other parts of that guys job is adventurous.
climbers admire the bold ones. i dont know what is more bold than being on a specail ops teram and the guys that i knew were all extremely solid individuals. so if you get over the kill part these guys have skills that climbers admire.
then put yourself in their shoes for just a minute....you can do this for your country, or do it for your own damnself for some hefty cash.
while i dont agree totally from an american taxpayer viewpoint, i definitely cannot fault a man (or woman) wanting to provide the best for themselves.
some climbers come off all high and mighty environmentally and socially wise and some of you are. but really, if you are a dirtbag climber do you provide anything to anyone other than yourself? yet this site seems to admire that sort of behaviour, all the while in the back of your minds realizing that some people in that situation do no good for anyone other than themselves.
i am merely being a devils advocate here, not saying i agree with the perspective, but those of us who work for a living and pay taxes, or that have jobs that help others defintely contribute more to society as a whole than those who dont.
OTOH, it is extremely important to take care of yourself. so i personally think that if you choose the dirtbag lifestyle and that fuels your fire, go for it. if you dont look after your own dreams nothing else matters IMHO.
what it boils down to me is that our political system is more bankrupt morally than many of us care to admit, and this blackwater guns for hire deal is an example of that. but there are many sides to the coin. our system of laws, regulations, requirements along with our collective fear of terrafter 911 has allowed us to get to a place that most now realize was the wrong place to get to.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:44pm PT
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You guys are missing a big fact here...
99% of these hired guns are guys that already served their country in some shithole on the other side of the globe.
Many are ex Delta Force, Rangers, SEALs etc.
Not all grunts either,...many officers.
Also these guys don't get to pick their assignments,
they get what they get.
It might be protecting a diplomats wife in Saudi, which would be a cushy job involving probably wearing a tux to dinner etc......
or it might be escorting building contractors in some bombed out Iraqi town where your on the edge the whole time.
Remember, in places like that where practically everyone walking down the street has AK's,
you are always expecting to be ambushed.
These guys earn their money by keeping innocent people alive.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:46pm PT
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Conscripted armies, via the draft, place more constraints on a leader who would abuse his authority. All volunteer standing army is the private army of the leader. Given the timid politics involved, it cripples checks and balances and only encourages mischief.
The constitution is in shambles.
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dipper
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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FYI,
The link below this text has the audio stories.
'The Chaging World': Armies for Hire
From 'The Changing World'
BOSTON (2007-06-15) Since the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, there has been a staggering boom in the demand for civilian soldiers who carry arms for private companies. "The Changing World's" Peter Snow moves with the men and women who operate in conflict zones, shedding light into this notoriously secretive world. He also talks with military experts who believe that these mercenaries are already an essential ingredient in world security in the 21st century.
Part I - Listen
Nearly 50,000 mercenaries of different nationalities currently operate in Iraq, many of them ex-Special Forces personnel. In terms of numbers, they are second only to the American army. We discover who they are, what they do, and who - if anyone - they are accountable to.
Part II - Listen
This segment focuses on the work of private military contractors in Afghanistan. With tasks ranging from the training of Afghan police to protecting missions, Peter Snow investigates the major issue of accountability, the economic benefits, and the high death toll and human cost to those operating at the sharp end.
A special collaboration between BBC World Service and PRI, "The Changing World" is a series of powerful documentaries, looking at global issues, from geo-political hegemony to world health concerns.
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/pri/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1098818
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 15, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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I get my info first hand.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 16, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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Theres a concerted effort to make these contractors out as some sort of blood thirsty slaughtering gang of hired killers when the reality is that they provide body guard services. More distortion of reality from the fantasy world of articles written from the comfort of a hotel bar stool.
If you want to speak of REAL mercinaries Execuitive Outcomes saved hundreds of thousands of lives by stoping bloodthirsty criminal gangs in Africa. The only reason that UN sanctions shut them down was that the gangsters that run most African nations feared their effectiveness.
In any case there's no equivilence between them and the contractors that daily put themselves at risk to protect the legitimate and democraticly elected governments in Iraq and Afghanistan other than imagined in a drunken bar room stupor by a dickless excuse for a reporter.
They deserve the money they make!
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 12:23am PT
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"They deserve the money they make."
So I guess you think our troops who risk as much should also be payed these wages. The money is coming out of our pockets.
My guess TGT, is that you haven't read this thread or even know why some here protest this practice.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 16, 2007 - 12:42am PT
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Hypothetical:
Would a 150mm contract to Executive Outcomes been worth a half million lives in Darfur?
Or are black lives worth sacrificing for "principle"
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Cos
Trad climber
California
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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Check out this link for a devastating and informative expose on Blackwater:
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SCAJ001.shtml
I caught part of this talk on NPR and then ordered the $5 MP3 of the full program from Alternative Radio. Blackwater looks like an organization to be feared. Much greater oversight and scruting is required. I can't believe our tax dollars are being wasted like this.
The Bush administration is a complete disaster and a total betrayal of the few good ideals they professed back in 2000. Washington DC, lobbyists, crony capitalists, and politicians of all stripes are the problem. What do you think Dwight Eisenhower, who warned of the industrial-military complex back in 1960, would think of Blackwater?
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Cheaterfive
Trad climber
Menifee, CA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 11:51am PT
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One of the jobs Blackwater has is protecting State Department personnel. U.S. Diplomats. The State Department has funding to cover things like that and it's something the U.S. Military isn't necessarily tasked to do. This can cover travel in and around Iraq. They can't just jump in a cab and go to the airport. Face it or not, the U.S., by design or accident, has drawn a lot of bad guy true believers to a battlefield in their backyard, not ours. This means the military and private security face the danger and average U.S. citizens can go about their business without the trepidation of the average Tel Aviv bus rider.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 16, 2007 - 12:18pm PT
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whoa. your "Tel Aviv Bus" statement is a classical Argument From Adverse Consequences (a logic fallacy), but I appreciate you trying to stoke the fire...
still horribly fallacious......[url="http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/53460/"]Guess you must have missed what Blackwater does...(eats it's own)...[/url]
Good link Cos....Erik is no "prince"...
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Joseph Young
climber
Sherman Oaks
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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Differences betweeen Mercs and Contractors is there operational directives.
EO a former South African company was a mercanary outfit. They took direct action against rebel groups for the gov. of Angola And Sierra Leone. In other words they were doing the fighting for the gov because thier military was not up to the task.
Blackwater and other companies operating in Iraq are there to provide security ie. fixed posts, convoys, close protection, and demining. They are not out hunting bad guys that job is being done by Task force units in regards to tier one targets and our army and marine units in regards to patrol and check points. Regardless of your views on the mess we call the Iraq war the contractors are not mercs albeit a very thin and shadowy line there is still a line.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/15/AR2007061502602.html" target="new"]Iraq Contractors Face Growing Parallel War[/url]
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