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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 16, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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Klimmer,
I've been on hiatus for a while and just saw this thread; I'd like to sincerely thank you for posting this thought-provoking topic...and exposing yourself to the ridicule of those who have reason not to keep an open mind.
Of all the natural wonders of this universe, I find it immensely interesting that our more scientific-minded citizens are some of the most vocal about the impossibility of other life sharing our universe. And making a trip to humble li'l old Earth? Absolutely, unequivocally IMPOSSIBLE!
I once shared a never-to-been-sufficiently-regretted ride from Josh back to LA with a "scientist". A PhD in physics, no less. A real Big Brain sorta fella. We couldn't even debate the potential existence of other life; the moment I brought up the subject, he shut me down with "No one in the scientific community would ever believe there's life elsewhere in the universe. It's a physical impossibility. They'd be laughed out of their job."
When I asked why there couldn't be other life, he said I wouldn't "understand" the theory behind what he was talking about.
Want to know what's really funny? Once we got back to LA, he couldn't "understand" why I never wanted to see, hear or speak to him again. I guess his brain wasn't really that Big after all.
But I digress. Sorry.
In my opinion, many people don't want to know about or even suspect the possible existence of other lifeforms because of an enormous amount of subconscious fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of having all their hypotheses distroyed. Fear of beings exponentially more powerful and intelligent than we are. (What the arrival of creatures from other planets, solar systems, galaxies would mean as far as technology is a daunting thought to men and women who think Earth technology is the end-all of the known universe. Like amoebae gazing upon a Mensa picnic...the potato salad would scare the excrement out of us.)
And then, of course, there was War of the Worlds. That's pretty much the quintessential opinion of humanity as a whole. If it's alien, it's gotta be bad. Look, we can't even get along with other Earthlings with different skin color, religious practices, creeds, language, eating habits, forms of locomotion...how in the heck do we think we're going to get along with something that breaths through its eyeballs?
For the guys who think our government is too lame to pull off such a cover-up--give me a break! You're mistaking "Mr. Bush" for our government...a monumental error of incredible proportions. Stop it! Use those big brains of yours! (Otherwise they'll atrophy and you'll have to replace all your hats.) :-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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Uh, I believe I said I thought intelligent life was as common as sknott. What I also said was the chance intelligent life interacting across intra- and inter-galactic distances was essentially zero unless technology indistinguishable from magic were also common as sknott. It's the "wormhole" / time-travel problem that's the obstacle. Folks seem all to ready to dismiss this obstacle with a snap of the fingers as if it's trivial - far from it, it is an obstacle many of us believe is simply insurmountable. If you feel differently I would then suspect you also believe in perpetual motion and unlimited energy for free...
P.S. there is no aspect of, or entity within the U.S. Government capable of keeping such secrets for the time scales or number of people involved in such plots. Technology and materials indistinguishable from magic would be so economically valuable it would be on the street faster than the Chinese Army got into the cable and satellite TV business.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 03:38pm PT
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L - wrote "For the guys who think our government is too lame to pull off such a cover-up--give me a break! You're mistaking "Mr. Bush" for our government...a monumental error of incredible proportions. Stop it! Use those big brains of yours! "
I get paid to do just that "use my brain," and by the Gov't. and for stuff related...
and though it is only my opinion, and I completely understand your point, I believe that there is not government cover up of extraterrestrial visits because there have been none.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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Well, it isn't entirely secret now is it?
People on the inside are coming forward and telling what they know. Like I said, disclosure is happening whether our secret government wants it too or not. And by their obvious fraudulent behaviour, retaining all the physical materials no matter what, and keeping it above top-secret (Cosmic Secret), threats to those who know, even assisinations, and attempts at professional debunking on a major public level, we can be sure that it is all real. They wouldn't go to these lengths to hide weather balloons.
To say that our government can't keep secrets is an age old arguement that doesn't hold water for a second. Too many numerous projects and examples to name. How many secret projects do we now know about, only because the records were released from secret into government public archives after X amount of years after the fact? The answer: too many. And we still wouldn't know squat were it not for the fact that they were publically released.
Yea, the government can't keep secrets --- that's bullsh#t.
Edit:
Just think, if the government or any private company working for the government couldn't keep secrets, and keep them as long as they so wish, then why the hell do they go through all the trouble with security and secret clearances for all manner of personnel? If it doesn't work, and our government (or anyone working for them) can't keep their mouths shut, then why bother with the masquerade? There are many different levels of security and secrecy. Depends on the project or operation. Some things are meant never to be known, and they will denie to the grave. Some things are done this way for true national security, and so be it, for good reason.
But I would speculate that those who are under oath to keep quiet, and have the highest levels of security and secrecy, and know what is really happening in the darkest corners of our goverment, probably speculate that the ET Alien Cosmic Secret really isn't so much about our national security, as it is about a secret government that wants the power and control for themselves, and these individuals see no reason especially on their death beds (when the government can't do any more harm to them) why they shouldn't tell what they know and disclose. These people have been "good soldiers," they have kept their mouths shut to the end, but they want their surviving family and friends, and the world to know. Many have done this in recent years and more are doing this right now.
Why would they lie about something like this when it serves them no purpose and no reward, other than to let others know the truth, just before they don't have the ability to say anymore and death takes them?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Klimmer,
Regardless of what any human has said about UFO's or 'visitations' - how is it that not a single account of any kind addresses the wormhole/time-travel obstacle? Without a definitive answer to that question what people say is fairly irrelavant and no different than claiming god exists.
See some reading here: [url="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research/warp/ideachev.html" target="new"]Wormholes[/url]
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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 16, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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Healyje--Didn't mean to make it sound like a jab at you, and I apologize if it did. Unlike some, I do read all the posts up to the one I write, and I saw where you stated you believe there could be life on other worlds--but you think extraterrestrials landing on our planet is virtually impossible. My ironic laughter was for the rocket scientist I had to share the trip with--and his assertion that no good scientist would believe that the miracle of life could happen anywhere else but here.
However, there is this one thing about your posts: You're so firm in your belief that those aliens couldn't have gotten to Earth, that it appears you're discounting all of Klimmer's information and sources out of hand.
What if you watched the videos and read the reports with an attitude of Well, who knows for sure? You know, a bit more inquisitiveness than absolutism.
I mean, think about this. What if there really is an alien cadaver in someone's NuAire deep freeze? Then suddenly all your emphasis on transportation issues would be just so many mental crossword puzzles. And, like that bacteria that can live in the hellish sulfuric expulsions deep beneath the ocean (thought an absolute impossibility by scientists up until...well...up until they were recently found), maybe this whole post by Klimmer might get you a little more excited about the possibilities rather than the opposite.
I, for one, would dearly love to see, meet, and do lunch with someone from another planet. Seriously. As long as I wasn't the lunch.....hee-hee-hee!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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That is wrong. To say that "they" don't talk about the space/time travel obstical is wrong. Many have. Now, I don't agree with everything Bob Lazar says, and I haven't made up my mind whether he is telling the truth or not regarding working at Area 51 for the government (he did lie about his education that is known), he does address this issue.
The archived Bob Lazar website:
http://users.skynet.be/bob.lazar/www.boblazar.com/
As time goes on, I'm more and more blown away how in the field of Physics very well known and very reputtable physicists are researching, publishing, and talking very publically about Wormholes, space/time travel, parallel universes etc. I have many NOVA specials recorded off public TV just on that. It is absolutely facinating. These topics I find to be very interesting and amazing.
Like Einstein said, if you were a beam of light, traveling at the speed of light -- time stands still. Special and General relativity are in a class by themselves. It is truly amazing stuff to know and talk about.
What we know about our Universe and the natural world around us through the very systematic methodology and study of science, is comparatively like a molecule of H20 in the vast oceans of the Earth. We know very little now, compared to what we will know in the future. We are literally scratching the surface. We are babies in our understanding of the vast knowledge of the Universe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
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L - the problem with all of the 'testimony' klimmer refers is it all works logically backwards, is wish-driven, and is science-based. An alien body would mean an alien spacecraft which would mean technology and materials indistinguishable from magic which, in turn, would explicitly mean control over essentially limitless energy (in terrestrial terms).
Does anyone really believe we'd be spending billions to send a ceramic foam covered Model-T into space killing astronauts along the way if we actually had any such technologies and materials available to even look at? Would we have gone into space and to the moon in tin cans atop of what can only be described as suicidally prehistoric propulsion systems? Would we be just now trying to decipher the most fundamental aspects of achieving, maintaining and controlling mach 7-10 flight for a matter of seconds? I personally think not - humans are genetically designed to leverage every possible advantage to further their survival - no government would ever be able to suppress such technological advantages and not exploit them in highly visible ways.
Unless someone can explain how aliens got here I for one am not buying a word of it - again, that the scales of time, distance, and energies involved are almost beyond comprehension is the reason I suspect you never hear about them and that those inconvenient facts simply get in the way of a story a lot of folks would love to believe. And the "we only know a drop in the bucket..." argument is incredibly weak - we actually know a great deal about the problem space and what we do know tells us the you would have to source and harness energy on such unbelievable scales that the very idea is outlandish in the extreme.
Again, the problem is everyone rushes to the antropomorphic wonderfulness of it all without a single cogent explanation of just how such aliens actually got here to so enthrall our imaginations.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 16, 2007 - 05:27pm PT
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"I, for one, would dearly love to see, meet, and do lunch with someone from another planet. Seriously. As long as I wasn't the lunch.....hee-hee-hee!"
L, I've been TOLD that I'm from another planet. More than once. Does that garner a lunch invite? I promise I won't eat you.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 16, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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I know, Locker, but I'm old and married. So I eat at the same cafe all the time now, yaknow?
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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 16, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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Healyje--Let me ask you something. Did you ever see that great classic, The Gods Must Be Crazy!?
Do you think that if that Aboriginal broke that Coke bottle into pieces, and studied those pieces for a good, long time...do you think our hero would finally figure out how to make a glass bottle?
You're presupposing that if alien technology ever fell into human hands, it would be something we could understand. Something we could "figure out", and substitute for our sytrofoam Model-Ts.
If beings could actually negotiate space travel and overcome the obstacles you envision, my thought is that their technology would leave us monkey-pawwing our heads, mystified beyond our wits.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 16, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
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For years, the earth was thought to be flat. Then the earth was thought to be the center of the universe. Science couldn't prove otherwise, so our observations were what we went on. For years Bees flew but according to know scienctific theory, they weren't suppose to be able to.
Some say that We do not have an instrument that can discern God and therefore God does not exist. Yet how long have we been able to detect atoms? Did they only start to exist once we were able to detect them? God exists. Right now there are only a few people who can sense his/her presence. But they do and they define that sense of presence as God. Is it God? That Depends on your definition of God.
As for Beings from other planets or realms visiting Earth. Certainly there are physical science problems to overcome that makes it seem virtually impossible. At least based on what we know, but remember the Bee. It wasn't suppose to be able to fly, yet it did.
L asks a good question. After looking at the stories of eyewitnesses and finding out that the government for years was trying to suppress these stories, then what is your explanation? Weather balloons?
Why not take a fresh perspective and look closer? Or at least hold off being so pessimistic or belittling those who want to take a closer look. I am not pointing fingers, I am just asking people to take a fresh perspective. Do you want to ask tough questions? Okay...ask them. Its okay to be skeptical, but I withhold judgement on this subject because we just don't know. Maybe they aren't traveling in a physical vehicle, but a thought vehicle which then manifests in this realm when they enter it. Just a thought. Why limit your thinking to only what we think we know or can prove? Isn't science about looking for answers?
Thanks Klimmer for making that statement about secrets. Some things do get out, but others remain secrets until forced out. Plenty of history shows that.
...............................
A couple more thoughts. How do you know that technology from other places isn't already in the mix of what we use? Do you know the sourse of every new invention or theory? Plus, how do you know that we have enough knowledge to reverse engineer some alien technology. Seems like you are jumping to conclusions.
Some day scientist will understand that the thoughts of mystics reveal answers to their questions and are the basis for further scientific developement. As it use to before the dark ages and the fears of the church drove scientist away from God.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 06:16pm PT
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Again, don't start with 'testimony' - start with energy and materials - even if all we had were the remnants of an alien spacecraft, the materials and components alone would likely unveil much of the magic associated with 'their' sourcing and controlling unimaginable scopes of energy on demand. To deal with any such energies would require incredibly robust materials the likes of which we currently have no knowledge of. And trust me, no such artifacts would pose the "coke bottle" problem given today's level of material and physical sciences. If such materials existed I can assure you we wouldn't be wrapping buses in ceramic foam to ship them aloft or still trying to figure out how to keep a rocket plane from disintegrating at mach 7.
Look, this isn't bees flying, discovering particles smaller than atoms, or hydrogen-based lifeforms - those are all trivial and based on well-understood physical and biological principles even if relatively new whereas transporting a single human-scale alien across galactic space in a physical vehicle that could survive travel in an atmosphere, in space, and through a wormhole is a whole different level. Again, you folks are just not getting a grip on the scales of time, distance, and energy involved. And fitting any such technology capable of dealing with them in a vehicle of a size that wouldn't completely destroy all of Area 51 and the surrounding landscape for miles, if not half the state, is downright silly. In fact, just the idea a craft which could withstand such energies and forces would be anything but intact after a 'crash' seems equally silly.
The self-referential musing of a handful of fervent believers isn't going to make me any more of a believer in UFO's then a set of self-referential Cardinals and Pope are going to make me believe in god. Both lack any credibility rooted in common-sense, or even basic logical thinking, let alone science.
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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 16, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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Dang it Moosie & Klimmer! We lost another one! grrr...grrr
I think I'll go gnash my teeth on a salt-encrusted margarita glass...down at The Alien Waterhole. C-yas!
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pcousar
Sport climber
White Salmon, WA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 06:28pm PT
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Hey Healyje, don't ya know you're not supposed to talking about area-51 on the interweb! sheesh......
hee hee....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 06:31pm PT
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P - that's Beacon Rock I'm not supposed to talk about. And you know who that beacon is for don't you? You guessed it...
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 16, 2007 - 06:46pm PT
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How easily you seem to dismiss the leaps of understanding which led to todays knowledge, when in fact much of it was puzzles for years and years. Sure, now that we understand it, it seems simple. But I am certain that many thought what we know now would prove to be impossible. Look at how many thought flying was impossible.
Just because the problem seems impossible based on what we know now, doesn't make it impossible.
As for Popes and Cardinals, they are not the true spiritualist of today. They are just good politicians who have taken over religion. The true spiritualist is often hidden and difficult to find, because the world has proven it doesn't want anything to change when it comes to their beliefs in God, and therefore they crucify those who reveal change. But even that is changing and the spiritualist of today are becoming more visible.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
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Dingus, the conjecture and testimony is all based on a craft having crashed and it having had 'occupants'. Life forms we are incapable of discerning or communicating with essentially don't exist to us. Again, no remotely plausible conjecture of any kind has ever been posed relative to managing the energy levels involved with wormholes / time-travel from a materials or engineering perspective.
And for that matter not one of you has shown any indication you really understand the scales involved - but rather simply dismiss them out-of-hand as they were a mere detail or afterthought. I would think anyone serious about UFO's would get at least a vaguely fundamental grasp on the basic pre-requisites involved with galactic-scale [time] travel. Doing more than dismissing these basic concepts and constraints out-of-hand clearly seems to be too tedious an exercise for some of you.
And, if we had a 'craft', we'd have been up to our eyeballs in answers long ago - instead, the cutting edge of human aviation, space, and energy technologies today is just a notch above discovering fire and throwing rocks compared to the capabilities you are suggesting. Show me a 'craft' capable of such a feat or even remnants of one and it would be less than a decade before we'd be awash in alien technology. As it is, all our technology has well-documented, plodding, and evolutionary domestic roots.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
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If you believe it is all just a matter of belief, than you are certainly entitled to entertaining that anything is possible.
But if you are interested in what is physically possible, than you can speculate as to what could happen.
Dingus and others raise a good point in suggesting that we wouldn't know an intelligent spiecies if it bit us in the ass. Maybe, certainly we have a lot of trouble recognizing and admitting to the continuum of intelligence displayed by life on the planet, which we have been familiar with thoughout the extent of our own species' existence.
So first you have to define what this intelligence is... maybe just "light like," but how do you put light together to make intelligence? what is intelligence? Perhaps a reduction of the local entropy, some sort of non-equilibrium phenomena? It is not possible to do with "just light" as the linear additivity of light makes it difficult to allow for something as simple as memory, which requires some process that isn't linear. Well, maybe we can make it quantum mechanical, but then any outside interaction with the quantum state will spoil the necessary coherence. And while that may be forestalled, the very long times that are required for light to travel to here, and then the subsequent entry into our rather opaque world, would make it hard.
I'm not trying to "prove" that this sort of "life" doesn't exist, just trying to tease out what the physical implications of the life is...
So what kind of "non-linear" or "non-equilibrium" stuff happens in the universe? well these are probably chemical. And then you go down that path of chemically based life... which may be broader than the DNA based stuff we are made off, but would look an awefully lot like it... as a "natural selection" type processes are much more general than just life on earth, they would work for a large variety of similar living things.
But the universe is a large place and probably all these things have happened, and maybe are happening. Even life like on earth.
How do you get stuff, atoms, from one part of the universe to the other? besides just blowing it off in supernova explosions to drift for millions, billions of years? Build a transporter? utilize "warp drive," create a "worm hole." Those things can be described well enough to calculate just what a technologist, no matter what they are, would have to do.
You might call this kind of thinking arrogance, but understanding what is physically possible cannot be arrogant. Ignoring what is possible can be.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 10:42pm PT
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if you want an expanded view of what is life... you are in luck as the National Academy of Science just published a report about it...
http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11919
click on the "free download" and fill out the form to get the .pdf version...
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