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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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Yeah, offwhite… that wasn’t very nice.
I’m just annoyed with Steve because of his repeated lectures talking down to everyone about clean climbing. I think he would get his point across much better if he didn’t come across like he was far superior than everyone else. It’s like he’s talking to a bunch of children.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:16pm PT
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Does the shoe fit?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Mike,
Definately buy the clean walls DVD. You're get your investment back straight away. It's one of those techniques that is hard to describe so watching the DVD is the way to go.
Until watching the video I use to really struggle with high stepping. I find Teeing off a fair bit easier than using tension. I think a little depends on body size, as I'm 5 7 and it works great for me, but one of my partners that I've been trying to teach it to, who is 6 4 finds it much harder and has pretty given up on it. In most cases its not an issue for him.
Practice on a vertical wall at a gym or home wall first before heading up a wall so you have it dialed. They are lots of little things that are required to make the technique really work well. For me, good wall "stiff" boots are key.
Be great to hear some clean climbing tips...
Cheers
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:32pm PT
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Thanks John.
But I think a few photos or illustrations could do well enough, but like I said, seeing and doing are two different things.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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When I'm climbing up in the aiders I'm seeing and doing at the same time.
A big ass piton I have on my rack ready to beat into crack.
Then I think, these Zodiac police might be watching.
What to do?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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Well Werner you said it was a big ASS piton, so you DO know where to place it.
Besides, I hear your topsteps have cobwebs.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
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Ron, thats not really an indication of what I do, but just kind of the way i think it goes down. if some hardman gets a pitch clean at C4 that previously went nailed at A2, and then the next 5 parties nail it, i'm kinda thinking "yup, i thought that would happen..."
As for what i would do, well I'll see when i get there. Thus far i've never hammered anything thats previously gone clean.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
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.. i have to agree with the previous poster .. most routes around C3 will probably never become clean only routes ..
for example .. the nipple pitch .. i'd rate that pitch C3 or A1 ..
in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow ..
.. now i dont expect everyone to take that risk .. but i think its a bold and proud way to do the pitch .. -- lots of parties have done that pitch without nailing .. and still alot of people unload a series of angles and sawed off's into it .. (for the record i gently placed 1 sawed off towards the end of the traverse, after camhooking for about 25 or 30 feet) ..
.. so that pitch will likely never really be a clean only pitch .. the fall potential will make folks nail on it..
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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So we can put a big ass piton in it?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:18pm PT
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werner ..
i think you can put anything you can fit into it ..
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
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"in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. (and i may be wrong) .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow .."
"for the record i gently placed 1 sawed off towards the end of the traverse, after camhooking for about 25 or 30 feet) ..
.. so that pitch will likely never really be a clean only pitch .. the fall potential will make folks nail on it.."
Have the bolts leading up to the Nipple been chopped? That would certainly up the fear factor on the traverse.
It wasn't that fixed when I was up there (pre-clean up). The free climbers were doing there thing recently and it was quite ticked-marked. I'd heard about it being a very fixed pitch and wondered if they'd done some clean up to make room for their digits?
There were some fixed micronuts. Probably a pin or two that I've forgotten about, but mostly I had to place it myself, so there couldn't have been anything that would mandate camhooking for 30 feet b/c I didn't use cam hooks or nail...just lots of aliens (some sketchy) and micronuts. I remember getting wacked in the face when I ripped out an alien I was testing and stupidly looked to see how the test was going.
Anyway...I didn't really know how to nail, so I probably would have needed to be really stuck before I decided to try it.
The upper part would be a different experience for me 'now' vs. 'then' b/c it was more fixed.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:36pm PT
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there are bolts and fixed pins that deliver you to the start of the nipple traverse ..
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:44pm PT
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"Let's hear about tricks we might employ to save the stone."
I have been working on hand placing of sawed-offs more. It's a little scary at first, but a sawed off can usually cam in pretty well, and sometimes work great where a cam hook or tipped cam might be sketchy. Works really well on straight in traversing cracks. You can kinda hammer it with your hand to set it, but it definately doesn't harm the rock like a hammer will. Also makes it easier to back clean them.
The crux for me is overcoming my fear, not the technical difficulty of the placements.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2007 - 12:29am PT
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Right on Lambone.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 08:16am PT
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"where you can see it bite off a bit"
You said a mouthful Riley! Imagine my dismay when I discovered that on sandstone even climbing clean,.....isn't.
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Colt
climber
Midpines
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Jun 13, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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My partner and I did the Zodiac over 4 days last weekend. There was about a dozen or so fixed pieces on the route (excluding old pins and heads). Pretty lean compard to many routes...but nailing it up isn't the solution. We replaced one missing head on the direct start first pitch and did not nail anything else on the route. We had the pins as we are not super experienced, but did not need them. We found the the climbing pretty challenging for my 4th and my partners 3rd wall, but people shouldn't need to nail this thing up just b/c it had been cleaned-up.
I would like to see less folks nailing on this route too. I will post our rack in the Beta section for those interested in what a couple of medium level guys used. I feel I should add that this route was quite challenging for us and do not under estimate it just b/c it is short. This is not an entry level El Cap Route IMHO.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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Ya, Colt.
My partner and I climbed Zodiac last fall clean except stick-clipping past the missing copperhead that Colt replaced. It definitely wasn't boring, but doable. Our gear list is in the Beta section. I also made my first placements using hand placed sawedoffs, which in a number of spots felt pretty solid. I did not leave for protection, though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Congrats to you both.
Claiming that using fixed gear or stick clipping negates a clean ascent is just as weak a sauce as saying the same about nutting pin scars. Its just a rationalization to justify a narrow mind.
You use the route as you find it, and as long as people don't continue to alter it (generally with hammers) people can continue to do so.
Just because its easier the old fashioned way is a selfish reason to threaten the potential for the countless clean climbers who might yet do it.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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I'd have to agree with you guys .. the zodiac requires minimal or no nailing depending on whats there ..
I hammered 4 times .. and 2 of those placements were for a lack of sack at the moment.. (or just lack of imagination) .. the other 2 were neccesary since i am 5'7" ..
(both were on pitch 8 -- i welded a head so that you could reach the fixed rurp -- and then placed a beak somewhere in there too)..
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
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Colt and Tomtom- Thanks for posting. You guys definitely get it and did your best. Right on! A challenge well met by some regular folks. No BS, no lame excuses. Honest adventure and committment. Funny what shows up behind all those fixed cowheads and mank once they are cleaned out, usable clean placements. Imagine that.
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