Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mark Hanna
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 12:13am PT
|
Off-
Yes- they were used there, and will be replaced by glue-ins this summer, as this was a ground-up affair, and this is likely the wettest place around here. Have you done the route?
MH
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 10:23am PT
|
Not yet, but it's floating around in the tick list in the back of my head and occasionally surfaces like the fortune in a Magic 8 Ball. Odds are good I'll head there this summer, and in addition to the Tower direct I'd like to do the one on the peak proper, is that The Mule? They look like swell midsummer adventures.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2007 - 10:38am PT
|
Mark - wow, thanx for chiming in. I do like the look of those Hiltis and it's good to hear from someone who has actually used them. It's hard for me to get reasonable advice since I still place bolts on the lead and many times "one-handed".
One question - can you tap in the Hiliti to the 'set' point without a hammer? (with a small wrench or carabiner, say?)
I think I'm going to order some and try them anyway - I like the fact that they are easy to replace since they are not SS - same as the Taper Bolts by the way (Grade 5 steel with zinc coating/plating).
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 10:39am PT
|
JB - Question? What, exactly, do you need bolts for? Last I saw, you were doing just fine without'em.
Take it easy and keep climbing, bra!
|
|
Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 10:52am PT
|
Hi Mark.
Thanks for that great info. I sure its just what JB was looking for.
For me I'm not interested in placing bolts but very interested in how one know a bolt has been place well and how secure it is after a period of time. These bolts seem to answer that question. I for one would be very interested in any pictures showing bolts being placed and there condition after a substantial amount of time in the rock. I also think that your idea of a hard nylon washer to seperate SS from CS is good. Please post further info after you have investigated the older bolts you placed.
As a trad guy, who will of course clip a bolt if its there, how would I recognise these bolts you use over other CS bolts? Thanks again.
Howie.
|
|
Mark Hanna
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 01:52pm PT
|
JB- The HCA could probably be set to depth w/ less than a hammer. It should be noted that I set them a bit deeper than the mark. This is a result of experimenting with a torque wrench to make sure they are not overtightened. As these anchors were designed for mid strength concrete, the depth set mark correlates to the torque needed in this softer substrate. Set some samples in the specific rock of the area, and you will find the point at which they clamp the hanger and achieve proper torque. Having never set a USE Taper, perhaps a similar method is used. I also use a longer wrench than I do with wedgies.
OffW- Let me know if you are interested in going up to Big Four with me sometime- both the Mule and the Tower routes are great fun
Howie- I will certainly post some photos up and coming.
MH
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2007 - 11:08am PT
|
Thanks Mark - The "set point" is also less with the Taper Bolt in granite but not by much. Is there a good online source for these Hiliti bolts?
|
|
Mark Hanna
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 12, 2007 - 08:29pm PT
|
JB- I have only purchased at the Hilti distibutors outlets. You may try online resources that cater to tilt up panel concrete construction, as this is their historical use (as temporary bracing/shoring). Let me know if you find something-
MH
|
|
scott johnston
climber
mazama, wa
|
|
|
May 13, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
|
Here is a bit more info on the HCA bolts. I have placed over 200 of these anchors in the 3/8"x3" size in both granite and some really hard local stone that I believe is a metamorphized volcanic sort of like basalt (it dulls my bits much faster then granite). My experience with ease of placment, lack of corrosion and freeze/thaw issues mirrors that of Mark Hanna. I find these bolts much less of a pain than trying to fiddle all the parts of a standard Rawl 5 piece.
Bachar- I usually carry a 12" breaker bar with a 6 point 9/16" socket on it. With this I can set the torque pretty accurately and have at times used it to drive the bolt into the hole to the set depth. Not as easy as with a hammer but it can be made to work. Just be careful not to knock the socket off the breaker bar while hammering!
I agree with Mark that the set depth must be deeper for rock than concrete and it may take a bit of trial and error to arrive at the correct depth/torque ratio in your local rock.
Howie- The markings on the HCA bolt heads will allow you to tell them apart. Aside from the standard grade 5 markings of three radial lines there is a "CY" and a "D" forged into the head of the bolt. These seem to stand up well to hammering so should be legible.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2007 - 12:49pm PT
|
Scott - thanx, good info. Your set up is the same I use for Taper Bolts (a socket wrench).
Has anybody used these in sandstone? ...done any pullout tests in sandstone (or some other soft rock)???
I "tested" the Taper Bolt pullout in welded tuff out here in the Eastern Sierra once with my VW bus. We place a 3/8" x 2 5/8" Taper in an outcrop of welded tuff right next to the road and tied it off to my VW bus bumper with a rope. I accelerated forward and got jerked to a halt a few times before I stopped. Not totally scientific but the the bolt wouldn't even move. Welded tuff is pretty darn soft once you drill through the surface. We were fairly reassured after the test however....
|
|
tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
|
|
|
May 13, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
|
So, its easy to replace the hilit coils and the tapers. Is it specifically the just hilti coil bolts? What about their other bolts? I know they have stainless options but the ones I saw were stud type and I heard they were hard to replace.
The rep at my hilit store says he can get a deal and all....
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
May 13, 2007 - 09:44pm PT
|
Caviat,
I've only placed a hand full of bolts on climbs and those were all wedge anchor types but here are some observations from having placed or supervised/paid for the placing of thousands in construction applications.
Wedge anchors are the easiest for the unskilled to place to full strength and the cheapest for the strength developed and OSHPOD approved. All they need is a clean round hole (not the easiest thing to do with a hammer and a hand drill) and a torque wrench to avoid over tourqueing. Over torque will cause the substrate to fail and produce a "spinner" (almost impossible in granite with a normal length 9/16" box wrench)
Wedge anchors are next to impossible to remove without damage to the substrate and you should always over drill the hole so they can be driven flush if there's the slightest chance they're in the wrong place, (a construction issue but not a climbing one, a pocket under the bolt could allow for some unpredictable freeze thaw effects)
The stud provides the full shear and pull out strength that can be developed by the fastener size / grade /substrate.
Five piece anchors will develop the full strength of the substrate in softer materials, even soft red brick. The substrate will fail first if properly placed. They fail corosively more quickly because of all the parts and the strength is usualy significantly lower than the equivilent stud/hole size. for example, a five piece 3/8" anchor has a 5/16" 16 UNC bolt. It has only 10% more minor diameter area than a 1/4"- 20 bolt. Shear isn't an issue because the sleeve contributes too but tension and corrosion allowances are! Soft stuff like parts of Red Rocks or Zion, I think I'd rather see a nice fat 1/2" five piece and all being said all five piece anchors should be 1/2" or stainless if 3/8".
I Think John is on to something here with the taper bolts in hard rock. They are more expensive and less available so I never used them in construction applications. A lot of the flack about Taper bolts comes from one statisticly insignificant test. Idealy a group of about five or so bolters of a range of levels of experience would place a statisticly significant number of bolts that would then be tested to failure. I don't see that happening any time soon.
When it comes right down to it you are stuck with what's there. 60+ year old Rawl Nail or brand knew ASCA approved bolt you still have to make the move. Better to know what's gonna be there or not test them at all.
Isn't that the point of the whole endeavor?
Not falling?
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
|
TGT is right man...I'm giving up all this bolt stuff and sticking to free soloing.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
May 13, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
|
Well, that's not quite what I meant ;-]
But every 1/4" incher that I ever climbed past held the draw and the rope just fine.
And, induced considered and careful movement in the process.
|
|
NoRushNoMore
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2007 - 04:47am PT
|
Mark, why grade 5 zink plated and not SS?
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2007 - 10:18am PT
|
Norushnomore - Interesting....they self tap into the rock and seem to have a high tension rating (pullout). It seems curious that the shear strength isn't very great (???).
Anybody ever use these things?
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
May 14, 2007 - 10:23am PT
|
I've used them in construction settings and in hard substrates, (old concrete) the setting torque is just short of what's required to shear them off!
They work fine in green concrete though. I'd never trust one in granite!
|
|
Mark Hanna
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 14, 2007 - 07:09pm PT
|
I have tried the Wedgebolts as well, in construction use. I definitely agree with the green concrete use. I stripped many out in cured concrete. In the assessment of the Powers tech rep, our local aggregate is very high compressive strength when compared to the national average. Recently, I was climbing at a fairly new area in Eastern WA where the sandstone is really soft, and observed these being used. I think some pull testing would be a good idea before I trusted them in anything but green concrete. It takes a specially sized bit as well.
It should be noted that while they are available in SS, the specific type (410) was chosen for it's ability to receive the thread cut. Corrosion resistance is less than that of 304SS, according to the GoogleGod.
http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/07246.pdf
MH
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!