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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
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Jennie,
The guns had the numbers filed off so they were black market. I don't know if it's legal or not for an alien to buy guns but it doesn't matter. The whole thing was illegal.
Mal
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:45pm PT
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I have not seen Borat.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 17, 2007 - 12:14am PT
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Two things:
1. While I enjoy going out in the desert and shooting sh#t as much as the next guy, my understanding is that the murder rates were much higher in the Old West towns where everyone was packing. Drunken fights quickly escalated from punch-ups to shootings. I don't know that everyone owning guns is a good solution.
2. I don't think healyj intended any disrespect (in fact if I remember correctly from previous posts, he's vet, so he ought to be allowed to speak on such matters). The fact is that there is going to be a much higher incidence of PTSD in Iraq vets and ther are also higher rates of domestic violence. I respect these people tremendously for risking their lives in this screwed up war, but that doen't change the fact that the experience is going to screw some of them up.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Apr 17, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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Hey Jeff,
I remember there were a couple of rapes on the CSUN campus when I was attending, do you remember the details? Did they ever catch the culprit?
I agree, no guns on campus but I do carry pepper spray. It won't kill anyone, but it will disrupt their ability to function. Pretty good if you don't want someone dead by mistake but at the same time still have an effective way for deterring and attack.
Anastasia
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2007 - 12:34am PT
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Now I know why I heard Anastasia is a spicy woman.
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MisterE
Social climber
RimDweller, AZ
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Apr 17, 2007 - 12:37am PT
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The kind of lunacy this represents is not available to those without guns.
I support the right to bear arms, but am saddened by the havoc it wreaks.
I like the IQ for guns idea...
many thoughtful, intelligent people choose pacifism. And I tend to trust those that don't...because they are living consciously, rather than reactively.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 12:48am PT
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Anastasia, 'dead by mistake?' Very rarely, even under extreme circumstances, does this happen. If anyone would be able to handle a gun, I would think that would be you.
Cheers,
Mimi
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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stich, I believe tasers are available to citizens of some states. They spray out a bunch of weapon-distinctive markers so that cops can determine what was done and by whose taser.
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MisterE
Social climber
RimDweller, AZ
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:14am PT
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Great for that fast-twitch muscle reflex before the crux, too!
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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"Dude in Virginia is an anamoly, not a represenitive"
Dude in Virginia may not be representative, but he still happened. As did Columbine, the San Ysidro massacre at McDonald's, and any number of other incidents.
Please, one of you, answer me this question -
what are we, as a society, gaining in exchange for allowing the folks who perpetrate these things, along with all the rest of us, access to handguns?
And know ahead of time that I don't accept the idea that "someone with a handgun could have stopped this killer." Cite the last time that happened. If enough of us were to walk around with guns such that a person might be: a) equipped and; b) able, to stop such a thing, what we would end up with would be more accidental and rage-induced shootings, not massacres being stopped by those with adequate firepower.
Those who support the right to purchase and own handguns are just unwilling to accept the fact that we are powerless, inconsequential beings. The time I spend in the ocean, in the mountains, or in the desert does nothing but remind me of such essential truths. Trying to feel powerful by holding onto a handgun is just delaying the realization of how small we are until the day one becomes infirm or passes to the next plane of existence. Accepting those truths now will not only allow us to become less violent as a citizenry, but also more serene as individuals.
And Ron, saying I wasn't paying attention to your CCW logic is specious. I firmly believe (and have for many years, not just in response to today's horror) that the sale of handguns in the states of this nation should be ceased. If that were the case, CCW carriers would not exist and illicit ownership of handguns would be severely curtailed. The number of senseless deaths would plunge.
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MisterE
Social climber
RimDweller, AZ
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:16am PT
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compensations of an adolescent culture and young souls.
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MisterE
Social climber
RimDweller, AZ
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:23am PT
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The weapon is a tool not a symbol of style, machismo, etc.
The freedom is within, not represented by firepower, yet they still own guns - maybe for subsistence living, maybe (locked carefully away) for that peace of mind, or a revolution...
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:25am PT
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dmalloy writes:
"what are we, as a society, gaining in exchange for allowing the folks who perpetrate these things, along with all the rest of us, access to handguns?"
I don't know how you can think we are "allowing" the murders you speak of. All those guys are dead now. If they weren't, they would be in prison because murder is NOT allowed.
From what I am reading, the guy who shot up V-Tech was here on a student visa, therefore he was NOT allowed "access to handguns" by our "society"'s laws. He obviously obtained his guns via an illegal source.
We enjoy more liberty here in America than the population of any other country. As such, we are going to have people who abuse that liberty.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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dmalloy, it's obvious you aren't a gun owner. Otherwise, you wouldn't express such faulty logic. As for disarming the populace, big mistake without curtailing even more civil liberties to protect everyone from the criminals who'd retain weapons. These horrible events are rare. Let's discuss why someone would do this in the first place. Where's LEB?
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MisterE
Social climber
RimDweller, AZ
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:35am PT
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Adolescents, be they human, soul or cultural seeks power without the ability/wisdom to understand the effect or rein in control of it.
Fear and control ( the immature response to fear) is as powerful a motivator as love to the adolescent spirit, and a lot easier to understand
Hence, Guns are an easy power source.
Thanks for being interested!
Just some theories I have borrowed/assimilated...
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Apr 17, 2007 - 01:40am PT
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Chaz, Mimi, I notice that neither of you answers the question. I am open to hearing an answer that makes sense; I am open to learning.
Telling me that I am using "faulty logic" doesn't really cut it - I'm about 5 beers in tonight, maybe you could explain what part of my logic is faulty? Or maybe you can't find anything meaningful beyond some name calling.
And I never said we were "allowing these murders" - what I believe is that there will always be people in a society as large and modern as ours who become unbalanced, or, if you will, sociopathic. Allowing such people access to handguns is a poor choice that we have collectively made.
Reports from various media, including the NY Times, indicate that one can purchase a handgun at a gun show in Virginia with no background check or license. Do you really want to defend that sort of legislative choice? Do you want to just call the NY Times a commie rag without doing the research to disprove their statement? I would be happy to see you do either in a plausible way; I am dissatisfied when you avoid the question I pose.
So tell me - what are we, as a society, gaining in exchange for allowing the free access to handguns by almost anyone? There is ample opportunity here to present a coherent case.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2007 - 01:41am PT
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Wish I could get that poster of Stalin, Hitler, and Mao with the caption; "Ask the experts. Gun control works."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2007 - 01:44am PT
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Oh and dmalloy,
I believe if you check you'll find that, just like in the recent Trolley Square shootings, the perpetrator did not have "access" to handguns but obtained them illegally.
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