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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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I agree with Tarbuster in that there is more to the story with regards to G Gnome being kicked out of the Gym for just a Hip Belay and being Drunk.
We want the whole story.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oh sure, it's all fine and dandy til someone loses an eye.
Once more, How can you be standing on feet and sitting on a ledge at the same time?
Until you answer this penultimate question, the issue of the cam holding or being enough or whatever will have to wait.
But I whole heartedly endorse and applaud your drunken gym climbing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Waidaminute:
First we have a high probability that G_Gnome was seen drunk, hip belaying, sans duds at a local plastic fest.
(never mind the bizarre admission noted by Crimposter-Sleuthmeister wherein he is now known to have been belaying while standing on someone's feet)
Now, now, this confession by Locker:
"and Woody brings me up off him only while sitting on top of a small ledge..."
Yowza...
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john hansen
climber
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We went up 'The East Wall' at Lovers leap just before Thanks Giving on a fine november day. I lead the first pitch and brought up my buddy Sean Kinney. He took the next lead out around the corner, and when I followed him up the top of the second pitch the belay consisted of one large hex draped behind a very solid flake. Sean led across the traverse and as he set up the belay, I looked back down the vally and saw a wall of rain coming towards us. It was 54 deg. and we were still in our summer shorts and 'T' shirt mode.
I crossed that traverse in seconds flat, before the rain hit, and by the time I got to the belay we were in a small waterfall that makes it's way down 'Bears Reach'. We stood there shivering for twenty minutes as the rain poured down. Then the sun came out again and we waited twenty minute's for the rock to dry off, and to stop shivering. Sean asked if I wanted to lead the last pitch to the top...I said ,lets wait till it dries off a bit more...
He eventually led up ,placing only two or three piece's on the last pitch. When I followed up he just had a hip belay with his feet up against a little wall on fairly flat ground at the top.
Seems like we mostly relied on the 'not falling 'method back then. Sean was way better then me.
Are there bolts at the top of the East Wall now for that belay?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...Well Jstan, you bring up some interesting points. I have been climbing over 30 years and am not dead, that I know of, so my pro must generally be good enough...
Nice. That's about half as long as jstan, then.
Curt
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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What's this get up called?
looks interesting
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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" What's this get up called? "
-a single 'biner anchor?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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...and Locker, just whut were you doing on top of Woody on that ledge?
I mean, just look at the implication in your werds man, I do hope you were being safe...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I shud have known it wud come to this.
My bad.
Sorry for the probe folks, given the outcome.
Where is G_Gnome in all of this?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mungeclimber asked: What's this getup called?
It's called a dead horse.
Alright alright. It's called a Mooselette.
GO
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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isn't that a cat's cradle?
where's my macrame primer...
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oh christ. You take a cordelette, and instead of making a single knot with all the strands at the bottom, you make two limiter knots in the middle strand. That's it. You can then clip the two outside strands to the middle one above the upper limiter knot.
I know that's terribly confusing.
GO
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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while it is an attractive hypothesis that the best estimate of risk is to calculate it based on something not happening, it is not substantiated. jstan writes:
"If you have never been pulled off a sitting belay and you have done it 1000 times then on average your risk is something like 0.1%."
First off, the assumption leads you to believe that the probability of an accident decreases with time. There is a model that could be proposed, say, a "training" model in which a less experienced climber has a higher probability of erring than a more experienced climber. Various statistics averaging over all accidents indicate that there is no age dependence to the accident distributions (see ANAM, for instance).
The probability that someone would have a belay anchor accident is a product of probabilities: of the second falling in such a way that the anchors are stressed with the probability that the anchors fail. Both of these probabilities are also likely to be compound probabilities, that is, products of "sub-probabilities".
How many fall factor 2 falls does a climber catch in his career? the number is very small. This would be a multiplier on the probability of anchor failure, which could be very, very large, even approaching 1, and not be correctly calculated in the jstan proceedure above.
In the end, the statement that "I've been climbing 35 years without an accident" only states that, to date, the products of all these probabilities have been low. It does not indicate the single probability of an anchor failing.
http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/challenger-appendix.html
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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So.....then - has the number of accidents where the belayer gets ripped off their stance due to the climber falling decreased with the advent of anchors comprised soley with gear, and no use of stance? (Of course....considering the mathematical mumber stuff; ie; more climbers = more accident, and such. Not taking into account, I would think, accidents where the leader falls on p1, where oftentimes there is no anchor whatsoever except for the time-tested "non-idiot belayer").
Personally, I always prefer to find some way to use my legs/stance in assistance with any anchor. So far, I've never had a fall come on me that has pulled me out of balance and onto the anchor, but....I have only caught maybe 10 lead falls, and most of those were me belaying on the ground(no anchor). The ones belaying a second caused even less, pull. Usually just sort of a sense of rope drag.
Anyway - I don't have any head whatsoever for the math. Interesting as it may be, the numbers stay visual in my mind's eye, instead of converting to energy, as I assume they do for some of you. If you think the Confused Moose-O-Lario is a clusterf*#k, you should see what it looks like to me, with all those numbers and formula's bouning off each other like they're being microwaved! so....what's a girl to do?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Ed touches on a subject near and dear to my black heart-- namely, that people do NOT understand what experience means, they don't knwo the difference between luck and good experience and bad experience, and last but not least, that repetition is NOT reason for comfort.
Dealing with the latter and most important idea,logically speaking, sucessful repetition in the past, no matter how many, does NOT guarantee that the next event will go smoothly.
Take rappel accidents for example. What saved your A$$ all those years is the fact that you either did everything exactly right, or that you were damned lucky, or perhaps some combination of those two.
What will save your A$$ THIS time is not the fact that you suceeded numerous before, rather that you will check your gear and anchor and carefully do everything correctly.
Being very careful and doing things correctly EACH TIME is what works, NOT some complacent and hubristic notion that says, " WEll, I made it this long, I must be OK.".
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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"Being very careful and doing things correctly EACH TIME is what works, NOT some complacent and hubristic notion that says, " WEll, I made it this long, I must be OK."."
worth bumping this one, imho...check everything, *every* time...
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2007 - 11:37am PT
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Jesus, a guy goes climbing for the evening and look at what this thread turns into! I just don't understand what all the fuss about a naked, hip belaying, big footed, gnome has to do with a good anchor. So what if I was drunk. I probably wasn't clipped into the stupid floor either. And that was a cute 20something girl who's feet I was standing on, she was trying to get away and we couldn't have that. I mean why else would I be pulling plastic other than to be checking out the babes!?
Next time I actually belay off more than one piece I am taking a picture to show how it is done in the real world. I mean, who the heck has the time or the inclination to put in a mooselette?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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I've recently started to only use the Fuk-o-let for all my anchors.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2007 - 11:56am PT
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Ahhhhhh, now that is a smart looking anchor! Well done Russ. Typical old school use of all available resources. And reasonably equalized as well.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nice, that's funny Russ.
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