Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2007 - 10:04am PT
|
I was waiting for Hankster to say,"Jeff, I didn't realize you were so smart!"
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2007 - 10:11pm PT
|
That's OK Hankster, I give Jeff enough guff for both of us.
|
|
L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2007 - 03:07pm PT
|
Bump for Matt M
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
|
bump - this is climbing related....
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2007 - 05:45am PT
|
While we're talking Eldorado, I tracked down this description on MP about a route called the 'Monument' in the cave:
Feeling burly? Dig slippery cave climbing? This hyper-visible line climbs left to right out of the back of the grotty cave on the south face of the Whale's [Tail], right above the main trail to Redgarden. Either boulder up (slightly heinous) or stick clip the first bolt and continue right on underclings and strange spikes to the lip of the cave. Going left past another bolt to finish yields a fine 13a, while the standard route goes up and slightly right via the crack/layback.
Now it's been way, way too many years, but back in the mid-70's we tried to put up a line from the pigeon nest/hole up in the back left of the cave that then went directly over the exact center of the cave roof and out the opening on the right. I'm curious if this is the same line and if the Monument crosses the top of the roof of the cave? Glad to see someone ended up getting on it if it is...
|
|
joane
climber
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2007 - 08:32am PT
|
question/comment from an amateur--i love the name because it makes me think that if i tried following your new line for this climb, i'd be in between heaven and earth going up and in reaching the end definitely in heaven. so it's a nice invitation in the name itself.
if and after getting to the start point of your new climb idea in any other fashion than rapping down, would you say that that is an overhanging bulge beneath what you guys are calling the lichen ramp? i think so from the photo-it reminds of this great fun route i followed up in the Barberine rock climbing area around Chamonix a few years ago called "Bon Voyage" put up by and described in the climbing guide book of many such great climbs there with many many put up by and described by him as well-- Jon de Montjoye. The 4th pitch of that climb had some of what he describes as 5.10b overhanging bulges which looked kind of like that spot in your photo.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
|
Anxiously awaiting the TR, Hankster.
joane- there are many different climbs that give access to the start of the Naked Edge or the proposed line, I just didn't draw them in.
|
|
joane
climber
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
|
So just for the sake of curiosity, how many pitches to the start of your variation? Remember I have no idea of what's out there and the route section of ST shows like 200 routes but none of them the "Naked Edge" nor "Eldorado " as an area. I'm sure it's simple to find, but even simpler is to ask you!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
|
joane- it's about three pitches up to the start of the Naked Edge. You can probably find more info about Eldorado, which is in Colorado, at www.summitpost.org.
|
|
joane
climber
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
|
Thanks!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
|
www.mountainproject.com
-Also has a gazillion first hand accounts of most of the Eldo routes; I've done a great deal of them and read nearly all first hand descriptions of my favorite routes. Sometimes people get highly detailed, even to excess, so this is a good place to look stuff over.
Here's "The Edge":
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/boulder/eldorado_canyon_sp/105748786
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
|
Jesus, What a travesty.
Adventure now has to be "approved".
Guess how loose you are with machine gunning bolts in an area CAN have a negative effect on others use in said area....
So if one were to put up a route without "permission", would it be removed? Would climbing be banned if this happened a lot?
Man, just looking at that link for applications makes me want to puke.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
|
Mucci, I suspect that it has a history in conflict and that this was some sort of accommodation of process.
I don't see the style of how the bolts go in in the doc.
Is it 10 bolts in 1 pitch?
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
|
Munge-
The doc did not reference the method of installation.
However, the ban was brought on by massive grid bolting with machines.
Hence, the application process.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
|
However, the ban was brought on by massive grid bolting with machines.
No, the ban was brought on by conflicts between climbers, over how to develop the diminishing amount of rock left in Eldorado Canyon State Park. Certain bolts were installed, chopped, re-installed, re-chopped, until the rangers banned all new bolting. They could have banned all climbing; we're lucky. Most of the Utah state park system is closed to climbing.
When the current system first appeared there was plenty of mucci-style indignation, on both sides. These days there are no sides; everyone's moved on, there's a consensus over new routes, respect for others' points of view. Works OK.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
|
Crunch-
Maybe I should have expanded on the many ways the ban came to be?
It was machines doing the bolting, chipping, and pockets.
This lead to the divide.
Rampant destruction with the drill. I see it happening where I climb as well.
Where do you stand on that style of impact?
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
|
mucci, there were local Boulder City park and Boulder County Park bans on bolting enacted in the late 1980s. These resulted from different groups of climbers with different ideas of how to develop new routes on the diminishing supply of new rock. Some places bolting worked well (Industrial Wall) while other places new sport routes were placed close to existing trad routes. This upset people; there was conflict. In Eldorado State Park, the then rangers, recognizing that climbing was a major use of the park, did not want to simply ban bolting, because they felt this would create a museum piece of a climbing area. They negotiated with local climbers to create some kind of process by which local climbers could approve, or not approve any new proposed bolts:
"The Action Committee for Eldorado (ACE) was organized and incorporated in 1992 as a result of then head ranger Bob Toll's request to create a process that would allow the climbing community to approve or disapprove the addition of new fixed protection in the Park.
In the late 1980s, the placement of bolts became a topic of controversy in the Boulder area. During that time, Boulder Mountain Parks and City and County Open Space prohibited the placement of new bolts. Eldorado also saw its share of controversy when certain climbers, acting without the support of the climbing community, added additional bolts to existing routes, replaced pitons with bolts, and moved existing bolts. These actions substantially changed certain climbs and enraged many local climbers. As a result of this well-meant, but misdirected effort, some of the new bolts were chopped. Bob Toll approached several active local climbers and informed them that the Park was willing to work with the climbing community on these issues. The Park's position was that Eldorado belonged to all climbers and that individuals could no longer be permitted to take unilateral actions that affected all climbers without community input.
To comply with the Park's request, ACE was organized. ACE designed the fixed hardware review process, which provides the climbing community with the opportunity to approve or disapprove of proposals to establish new routes requiring fixed gear and to change existing climbing routes. ACE's role is to advise the Park as to the opinion of the local climbing community; the final decision on whether to approve the proposal rests with the Park. To obtain maximum feedback and support from the climbing community, the ACE Board of Directors is comprised of representatives from the Access Fund, the American Alpine Club, the American Mountain Guides Association, and the Colorado Mountain Club, as well as unaffiliated members drawn from the climbing community."
http://aceeldo.org/about/history.php
So, the Fixed Hardware Review Committee process is what we have. It's far from perfect, it can be a pain in the ass, it's likely not a great model for areas without large nearby climbing populations. But hey, it works pretty well. And over the last 3 decades conflicts and argument over bolts and new routes have pretty much vanished. Recently, the Boulder Parks rangers (a very conservative bunch) even opened up their lands to some limited bolting, as a direct result of seeing how well the Eldo system has been working.
The debate over sport versus trad is long since over, both around Boulder and most other places. The debate is now more like, climbers versus other user groups. Sport bolting is appropriate some crags, especially on roadside crags, limestone, etc. It is grossly inappropriate other places, particularly in the wilder, more remote areas, or where heavy climbing activity would cause conflicts with other users, and of course on cliffs with good cracks.
Where do I stand? I try to figure out where the relevant land managers stand, go from there.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
|
Thanks for the run down crunch.
Cheers
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2015 - 10:59pm PT
|
so this isn't a remote crag, is 10 bolts in a pitch meant to be 'safe' or is there a splitting of the baby with the bath water on the number of bolts?
I'm asking genuinely from a place of ignorance on how the number of bolts is determined.
I mean if the route is done TD, it better not be run out in any way shape or form. Gear placements should be bomber.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!