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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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Dingus, I only skimmed this thread and didn't bother with the original link, but your Kurtz reference cracked me up. I didn't see the picture at first and something about that quote was ringing a bell :)
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:57am PT
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Wiki:quixotism (countable and uncountable, plural quixotisms)
That form of delusion which leads to extravagant and absurd undertakings or sacrifices in obedience to a morbidly romantic ideal of duty or honor, as illustrated by the exploits of Don Quixote in knight-errantry.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
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Yeah, all joking aside, ditto on what Zardoz just said.
Allyson, as a trad climber, environmental lawyer & promoter of gender equity, and woman, your voice is entirely relevant.
Let's hear it, please?
-Roy
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
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How did you know I was lurking right now?!
I really can't comment on Free Solo or the critique.
BUT...
My mom told me a timely story yesterday when I was driving the hour home from work HQ (I actually work in biotech). I like to catch up with Mom on long commutes. She said that when she was pregnant with my brother in 1989 as an attorney, she was making some point with a male colleague, or thought she was until another male colleague interrupted her and said, "Oh don't worry about her, you know how they get when they're pregnant." For some reason, the two men didn't appreciate her opinion and so she was discredited. It was that typical scenario of the two male lawyers in the late 80s and the pretty and precocious young female lawyer, who happened to also be very pregnant...and you know, "crazy." And that was that. Because he implied that what she was saying was nonsense or not some true reflection of reality, her opinion no longer was a reflection of reality. Only because he discredited her and he had the power to do so, only because of his maleness. Though we may not want to reflect on the weight of this fact: we live in a patriarchy (and a white one). When men discredit a woman's opinion, it's no longer a valid opinion because males are top of the heap in our patriarchy.
But...what if the truth is actually that the only valid opinions and reflections on reality ever are actually those...of pregnant women? Or of 28-year-old women? Or of 68-year-old women? I can imagine alternate realities where women's opinions--no matter how "whiny" or "crazy" or difficult--actually matter because just like any opinion, they are formed from experiences and education in this world.
<3
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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Right or wrong is tricky. There's value in trying to figure out who's opinion is right or wrong, I guess.
An alternative to figuring out if the author is right or wrong: We become curious and wonder how the standard male hero narrative overshadows a lot of stories we don't hear (because they're not the mainstream ones). And we ask why the standard male hero narrative overshadows the other stories. Is it because it's a better story?
In this case, we don't even have to diminish the value in Honnold's story or HF. But we could possibly augment the value in some others.
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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You and me both, zardoz. :)
And on that note, before I get too deep into this, that's my queue to sulk off somewhere.
Bonne continuation...
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
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Thanks for your input yosguns.
The thing is... there are condescending as#@&%es of all colors and genders. True, we still (mostly) live in a white patriarchy. But we've come a long way from "a woman's place is in the kitchen... barefoot and pregnant.
Today, just about anybody can be heard, if they're willing to stand up for themselves. The days of being summarily dismissed because of sex or ethnicity are (mostly) in the past.
The World is full of as#@&%es. You're gonna run across plenty of them. What makes the difference is how you deal them and how you process the interaction.
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yosguns
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
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I don't think she's being dismissed because she's a woman. I think she has a challenging viewpoint that, because it's being dismissed by a bunch of men (and some women adhering to patriarchal values) in a patriarchy, becomes not valid. But, I'm not sure it's being dismissed anymore for its invalidity than for the fact that it's challenging.
(Can't stay away!)
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Trump
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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I was also seeing clearly how much I needed to work on myself as a settler colluding with these shegems of oppression.
Honnold s glory, and that of those before him, .. , come at a historically violent cost.
.. there exists threats to the inalienable rights of all.
Ahistorical narratives ..
.. all the lives that have been taken in order for him to be able to be in the position he is today ..
It’s an interesting criticism, like many identity politics criticisms are, in the ways that it confines itself within the context of being a human, and ignores the exact same arguments to be made outside the confines of being a human, an identity with which she might be inclined to also identify with.
So sure, Honnold’s glory comes at a violent cost. 4 billion years of survival of the fittest, resulting in these violent humans having for the most part outcompeted their competitors. We rest on their shoulders. Hurray for us and the glory of our essay!
But those f*#king self-righteous arrogant humans?! Not me, the other ones.
Inalienable rights? Inalienable to whom? Take those inalienable rights and a 6000 word essay and see how you fare against a mountain lion.
Ahistorical narratives? Hmmm, might be best to review and consider our 4 billion year old history of survival of the fittest. But doing that might require one to identify oneself in the same evil class as those other evil offensive humans. And avoid doing that at all costs of self-awareness or intellectual honesty!
All those lives that have been taken ... Yup. Still though, I’m not so inclined, in response to my toxic humanness, to let the mountain lion eat me. I wonder why?, and whether the same why might be manifested in her, too?
If we need to kill that mammoth, or slay that white male, then that’s what we do.
Me? I’m one of them too, whether the way you prefer to see me is through the lens of “white male” (and the differences between that and your preferred identity) or through the lens of a “human” (and the commonality between you and me that that entails).
Your choice, and she’s choosing. Honestly, she’s making the same tribal choice that most humans make, so it’s hard for me to fault her for that. But it’s not the choice that I prefer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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Well, as a Portland-based climber married to an enrolled tribal member and writer, I find that more than a bit harsh. I don't really want to be harsh in my response, but I come up with a couple of things:
a) Her rampant colonialist screed feels very much just like just another case of misappropriation of a cultural identity not her own. In that respect, it seems barely this side of the Rachel Dolezal experience.
b) She's attempting to make a living selling her ideas and services around "detaching from whiteness" (and climbing) but using white colonialist technology to do it.
c) Poor Alex. Everyone in the world is now projecting onto him whatever they need him to be for their own internal world and Erin is no way an exception in that. Such is the price of infamy...
d) Her whole climbing-as-toxic-masculinity thing is unaccountably over the top and she cherry-picks from the climbing world throughout her article to bend it to her lens.
e) Equating the conquest of rocks with that of aboriginal peoples is very much a stone too far (though I do personally equate sport climbing with the colonization of rock). Further, seeing how she's selling climbing and promoting herself as a climber on her website, I don't see how she's anyone to be casting stones at climbers, toxic or otherwise.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
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In the day and age of Trump she’s complaining about Honnlove for misogyny and cultural insensitivity?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:27pm PT
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I just saved this thread to PDF, because as we've seen, these boy-girl/girl-boy topics have a habit of getting struck wholesale by the "moderators", who, by my standards, have shown themselves to be rather immoderate with their sword.
Sure, we haven't yet seen any personal attacks or invective here, but I'm not even sure that's the metric by which they deem these topics worthy of dissolution.
Just saying. Pay no further attention to the man behind the curtain.
Carry on!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Nutty
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
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Is it toxic femininity to be working for the man to make a living or by going to the market and eating out and not living off the land making your own clothes and shelter?
I like fast food myself, we have lots to be grateful for, free time included!
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
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Sure, we haven't yet seen any personal attacks or invective here
she may have trouble getting a date and is angry about it.
1) She secretly wants to hop in the sack with Alex
2) She desperately needs to hop in the sack with someone, anyone, anything
uppity women
No mistaking, the crazy
^make note of appearances here
The OP writer is just biting his ankles.
big of him?
Then you'd put the moves on her again, big of him?
I'd whisper Native American place names into her ear, check mate!
Inyouit
As much as I think the essay in question was a bit, umm, overwrought, I can apprecite many of her points. Maybe aim isn't as much of an issue when taking the nuclear option. Also, Yosguns's point about gender differences when making arguments seems valid. Hopefully look above?
Finally,
1) Gender differences? If a group of women said to most of guys here, "What you need is a good lay.", they would say, "Well, yeah!", and promptly queue up for more than they could finish (excepting maybe Hank). Who's cheap?
2) Ed H, generally civil, really needs an avatar. Can you imagine the intellectual cut downs if he really letv the hair down. Is that even possible? (please get him a nickname, prod his mind).
3) If I remember Chouinard was impugned in the essay. If so, we're all screwed. Still, he's has been saying that for a while (keep buying his stuff).
4) If I keep typing no one will continue reading this anyway. (please insert your opinion, and keep on topoing!) At least until the fulfillment of soothsayer Roy's predictions. I don't see it myself.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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Wiki: In law, misappropriation is the unauthorized use of another's name, likeness, or identity without that person's permission, resulting in harm to that person. Also, approprio (“to make one's own”)
The end doesn't justify the means---Ovid.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:37pm PT
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BJ,
In response to your arguments, if someone were to call you a BJ queen, or mention holding you over a barrel, instead of addressing your point, .... wait, what was I saying? nevermind.
Oh yeah, disproportionate amounts of violence against women has been documented across many societies. If you want to put yourself over a barrel,... maybe no problem if you do it with love.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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cough... cheers all! hope this gets figured out here on this climbing forum, you know for the sake of the world. get out there and have some fun with each other.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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Thanks for straightening me out with those quotes, Jim.
I was speaking with regards to animosity between Supertopo avatars. I haven't seen that get out of line yet, which is often what gets these threads struck from the record.
And I haven't made any predictions; rather I'm just saying these types of topics meet a profile of those that go away.
I believe this is a valuable discussion.
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