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Big
climber
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Jan 29, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
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The pics help immensely. We tear out a couple dozen showers a year that suffer from similar problems. Caulking is rarely a fix, just a treatment for the symptom. A properly built shower shouldn't even need caulking to keep the water in it's place.
The extra row of tile around you shower pan suggests that the previous owner had a similar problem and tried to put a band-aid on it. You maybe able to stop the leak with some silicone, but I would bet it returns. If you have an access panel to your tub pull it open and see if it looks wet under there. You can also do some pinpoint water testing and try to make it leak. That will provide you with more useful info as to the source of your woes.
Shoot me a PM if you need someone to walk you through the testing steps. I could probably refer you to someone from in StL that could give you some advice as well. Hell, if you use your femine wilds, you might even get the advice for free. Men are such easy prey.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 12:12am PT
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Thanks Big! Sadly, the contractor who put in the tub did NOT put in an access panel. Tragic. So, any peeking under the hood means massive tear outs. And, given this is an old house, you are looking at my only full bath. I say, I paint it up purdy and sell it if the $@#@! leak returns. :)
Hey, if you are in town and want to check it out, I will gladly pay you with beer. :)
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Jan 30, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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is the drain slow?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 05:12am PT
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You are getting good advice. I would get
someone to come in and look it over.
If the stain in the ceiling came on suddenly
that would argue against a grout problem.
The ceiling picture suggests iron oxide.
Go to your main shutoff in the cellar and see
what kind of pipe comes out of it. (Every
homeowner needs to be very familiar with
the location of the main shutoff.) If it is steel
the whole house may be plumbed in steel.
I suppose it is also possible the DIY shower
is in steel and the house in copper. But you
have to go to trouble to cross materials like
that, never mind the galvanic action. You can
pull the splash flanges at your valves to look
in and see( unless this is a very nonstandard
setup).
If the riser to the shower head is really old
steel rust may have sloughed off and fallen
down, possibly leaving a pinhole. When you
went to a higher pressure shower head the
leak would have worsened. That water might
then have carried the fallen rust into your
ceiling below.
This is all speculation and free so frankly
that is its true value. I would get someone in
to look at it. Get some help from BIG he is an
expert.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 30, 2007 - 09:30am PT
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Crimpie, I agree with the Big's and John's posts - that isn't a caulking problem - that's a design, implementation, or corrosion problem. To be straight up front I'd say you're definitely looking at a tearout to really fix it. No telling whether it's a feed line or pan problem but it isn't good and isn't likely to get better on its own. Bummer to hear I know, but that's probably the reality of it...
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Big
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 09:31am PT
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Sorry, the closest I will be to the Lou in the near future is E-rock. Gravy and I are planning a clean up when the temps come up a bit. You should join us.
Process of elimination is how I would approach it. Start low and work up. Plug the drain or put a piece of duct tape over the hole (sounds reasonably perverted). Don't let the tape cover where the metal portion of the drain contacts to the fiberglass pan. Then fill the shower pan up to just below the tile. Take care during the filling process to not get any of the tile wet. Then, pour yourself a appropriate sized glass of red, watch the ceiling, and listen for drips.
Report your findings and then we'll move on to the next step. By the way, this is how contractors drag things out, run up the bill, and have excuses to return to a single gal's home.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 09:35am PT
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Big:
Let me know when Gravy and you will be out. If I'm in town, I'll come out and play. The shower problem is a slow one and isn't going anywhere fast so it'll be here waiting for you to see. You'll bring the red wine, eh?
:)
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Big
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 10:00am PT
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How's the skin after a couple of days at KB? Place can be a tad sharp. But does it ever get the winter sun!
Were you craggin with Mark and Charlie?
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Jan 30, 2007 - 10:32am PT
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Hey Crimpie-
I had a very similar problem in my house a few months ago. I was amazed by how much water came through the grout. I didn't read every post on here, so it may have already been suggested, but we established that it was the grout via a methodical process of elimination.
The water there will basically be coming from one of three places: the supply pipe, the drain pipe, or through the grout.
If it is the supply pipe, it must be after the diverter valve (the thing that attaches to the handle) or it would leak constantly. If you are able to see the entire piping behind the shower you should be able to observe this easily. For all your experiments, make sure you're running the water at the normal temp you take a shower.
In my case, we could see under the tub/shower to the drain pipe and it was pretty clear it wasn't that. I don't know if you can see it, but a decent experiment would be to start dumping buckets of water down the drain (without running the shower or getting any on the grout) for a while to see if the leak appears. Often the drain body will separate from the shower pan a little and water will leak around that, although that is more common in cheap acrylic tubs than your more solid looking shower pan (if that thing is plastic, it is a lot more likely to be the culprit).
To test the grout, we just aimed the showerhead at the wall and waited. It was amazing how much got through. We ended up having to tear out the drywall ceiling underneath and replace it once the grout was re-sealed. I think the product we used for the grout was just a sealant, I know the entire shower wasn't re-grouted. I'd bet if you went to home depot and told someone you need to re-seal your shower grout, they could give you a product. I wouldn't wait though, water damage leads to mold which can make a house very difficult to sell.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 10:51am PT
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Big: Been getting out mostly with Mark lately. Charlie and I have been wanting to trip it, but we haven't managed to yet. He's burned out on King's. My tips are good actually, but remember, I do have the climber-man-hands.
As far as these suggestions (all very thankful for), there is no active leaking/dripping or anything like this. What ever it is is very very slow. Like I said, this happened (that is, I could see a problem develop on the ceiling) two years ago. All was repaired (in theory anyway) using silicone. No problems. Then recently, the ceiling started showing signs of a slow leak. Took two years to show.
I can see it's not the pipes that feed the shower. No drip/leak there. To see the drain pipe would require tearing out the entry way ceiling plaster (concrete?) and the wooden slats behind them (remember, it's an old house. It's built like a bomb shelter.) All plumbing is under 10 years old. Other possibility as you say is a slow accumulation of water in the plaster from tile joint leaks. I'm going to start with this - So, I've re-siliconed everything. Letting it dry for days (two days now) and then I'll watch the ceiling to see if that helps. fingers crossed. At a minimum, I should be able to get another two years out of it, or be a responsible home owner and re-silicone annually. Hopefully I can sell and move away before it needs further attention!
I do like the red wine idea though. I prefer an oaky dry wine. :)
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Big
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 11:13am PT
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If your there for the short haul, that plan will work. To enable close tabs to be kept on your leak, highly recommended for many reasons, you might think about scraping the loose stuff off the ceiling and hitting it with a coat of stain blocking primer once it is completely dry. Any new stain will stick out like sore thumb and you can adjust your caulking schedule as necessary. Best of luck. Don't let it get away from you and end up spending 4x as much as repairing it now.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Jan 30, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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Blow off the shower, buy some baby wipes and go climb at Draper's
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Big
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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Sell the house, by a RV, eat the birds, and hit the road
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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You tease with the RV plan. I would LOVE to do that! Won't eat the birds - they are my co-pilots. :)
Have the baby wipes, can get to Drapers...See the short term fix=more climbing time. Yay!
Edit: Some more fun photos. This is in my closet which backs to the shower. You can see some water stains from when this happened two years ago (now I'm thinking it may have been three years). There is zero evidence of any water here. I've been running the shower like mad and nothing - not a drip.
Fun stuff. I have a mess to fix in the closet now though.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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Ohmygosh. You can forget about the worst case!
Your house is not plumbed in iron. Looks like your
shower was a DIY judging by the solder job, but
you can see the whole thing! The joints are
apparently not leaking.
A normal noobie would construct the piping as
assemblies out on the workbench where all
the joints can be made just so. Then you will
have only the last joint to do in position where
it is more difficult. Professionals can, of course,
do everything perfectly under any condition. Our
seller was a tile retailer by trade and there his
work was really nice. As a plumber and
electrician - nada. Opening up his work there
is always an adventure. After working behind
someone for awhile, you can almost do a
psychological profile on them.
Have fun with the detective work but go
climbing for now.
Cheers,
EDIT:
I try always to keep in mind that "demo is
always easy - rebuild is another kettle of
fish". This does not always change what I
do. But at least I go in with my eyes open.
Your ceiling may be lath and plaster. (Nice
moulding by the by!) I am way out of my
depth when I get to lath. There I will keep
my peace.
Sling512:
He gave you a couple of convenience valves!
Cool!
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Jstan: I've saved this piece of information because I know the major groans it will cause.... The previous owner was a housing contractor! Yikes. You know what that means.
I'm still staring at the ceiling downstairs wondering if I should try to punch a hole through the concrete and wood to see if I can see the drain pipe. Scary.
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jan 30, 2007 - 01:48pm PT
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Crimpie,
Here is my back of my shower/tub mess post drip fix. Our houses ARE related!
-sling
p.s. I'll get a 'Scary Places in your House' thread going tonight, haha.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2007 - 01:57pm PT
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Excellent! I was going to propose the same thread. I'll go down to the basement now (before it's dark - ew) and open the mystery door and take a photo. If no one hears from me after this post, please call 911.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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FR:
Recently saw a report that duct tape does
not do one thing well at all. It is worthless on
HVAC ducts. Go into your overhead and you
will find duct tape hanging on your suspension
wires. None of it will still be on the ducts.
Tim Allen's application wherein he tapes
down the stuff on his dresser so he can dust
using a leaf blower - there duct tape is good
to go.
Sorry,
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jan 30, 2007 - 02:10pm PT
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I'll show behind my little iron door if you show your's first!
-sling
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