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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 18, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
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Also... if you're going to "chop" a climb... esp with glue-ins.
It's 2018
4 1/2" angle grinder + spare batteries + Bag of cutoff wheels.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 18, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
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What about in cases where the landowner seems to have given permission?,
how could they have given permission when they did not realize they owned it until Clyme told them. Everyone thought the town owned it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 18, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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Sorry this happened, but you’ll always have the memories of doing the first ascents
For the so-called guide I think someone should reach out to him and say he should come back and clean up the poor job he did. He should have realized he needed to do that when he first came. He should have left the glue wins researched how to do it correctly and came back with the right tools. He was being greedy to do that poor job. If he doesn’t come back and clean it up then I would say publicly name and shame him.
For the land owner: a few flyers placed in the Dartmouth dorm rooms for a BYOB party every Friday and Saturday night the next couple months seems in order.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
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actually everyone thought Dartmouth owned it until town of lyme claimed they owned it. dartmoth has been using that cliff for winter ice climbing classes for decades. for some reason I can't seem to find a shot of the parking area but it has had similer signage as this telling climbers where to park for as long as I can remember..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
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I would rather take care of the clean up. Still hopeing that someday Dartmouth will reconsider and possibly allow at least the ground up climbs to be restored. from the choppers I really wish they had climbed the routes first, especially the ground up climbs.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
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It's 2018
4 1/2" angle grinder + spare batteries + Bag of cutoff wheels. A wireless Dremel tool works well, too.
(We used one once to remove a couple of our bolts,
when we found out that we had strayed onto an existing climb by mistake).
Bummer about your climbs.
And the landowner / ex-climber who became so selfish / fearful.
Looks like you had some good times there.
If it's your best local area, at least you can still toprope....
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
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My regards tradman.
On my side of the Dacks there is considerable scorn for bolting of any kind. Chopped routes have been ,well,routine.
That said ,a 4 hour drive away in the Northern Tier of Pennsylvania,bolting is encouraged as they like the boost to the economy from more climbers coming around.
Again ,sorry about your work.
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Mr. Rogers
climber
The Land of Make-Believe
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Sep 18, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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The facts in this case are a bit unclear to me. Let me see if I've got this straight:
1) People have been climbing at Holt's Ledge for decades. Mostly for the ice climbing. I did my first ice lead at Holts back in the late 90s.
2) Since, at least, the late 90s access has been an issue. Parking on Canaan Ledge Lane was always an issue, and at some point ice climbers were told to park at the Dartmouth skiway and walk up the road to the cliff and approach the cliff via the Appalachian Trail/skiway -- not across landowner's private property.
3) Tradman and friends, with the approval of a local landowner (who owned land near the cliff, but not the cliff itself) bolted rock climbing routes on Holt's ledge.
4) A pissing contest ensued, or some other such bullsh#t, and the local landowner rescinded his support for the climbs.
5) The town of Lyme found out about the climbs and believed that the climbers were being disruptive -- chopping trees, cutting trails, fires, etc. These claims may or may not be true. They may or may not be the actions of all climbers, select climbers, or non-climbers.
6) At some point, a climber advocacy organization, CLyme.org, was organized to try and manage climber access to the cliff. I don't believe Tradman was a part of this group, but could be wrong on that point.
7) At some point in the dispute, someone (maybe Clyme? maybe someone else?) argued that the town does not own the cliff, but that Dartmouth College does. I can't tell if this ownership dispute has ever been resolved.
9) In the fall of 2017, the town of Lyme voted to chop the bolts. 143 to 74.
http://www.nhpr.org/post/interest-rock-climbing-soars-lyme-says-not-here#stream/0
https://www.vnews.com/Lyme-to-Hold-Town-Meeting-on-Holt-s-Ledge-12956771
http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2017/11/lyme-votes-to-cut-holts-ledge-bolts
10) The bolts were chopped. Apparently poorly in some cases. Posts earlier in this thread say it was done at the order of Dartmouth administrators, who (I guess?) now agree that Dartmouth owns the land. But as Lyme voted to chop the bolts back in November, I guess they could have done it too? And it is alleged that a gunks guide was hired to do it?
Have I got that all right?
PS - All you internet lawyers: the chin-stroking about adverse possession is a load of meaningless horsesh#t. Because both parties with potential claims to the land--Dartmouth vs the Town of Lyme--wanted the bolts chopped, then for the purposes of arguing about bolt chopping the actual owner of the land is irrelevant.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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It is clear that Dartmouth owns the cliff. It is clear that Dartmouth arranged for the removal of the bolts. I had arrangements to remove the bolts for the town of Lyme but they then found out that they did not own the cliff. Yes some trees got cut in one incident by 3 phd's that should have known better. no fires were ever made by climbers. there were existing fire pits but none of us ever hung out there to make a fire. that was most certainly one of the residents of canan ledge road or townies. There have been no recent access issues at holts before this event. Climbers have been parking at the ski way since 2004 ish. the one climber that parked at a residents house was invited to park there several days earlier. We were all invited to park there at one point. No I am not part of CLYME. I felt that it would have been too self serving and controversial for me to be part of that organization.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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as far as top ropeing goes I never was real big on top ropeing. especially multi pitch climbs..
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 18, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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At the very least,you are getting one back....https://cragvt.org/boltondomeproject/
You have a lot of good climbing rock over there,WNY, not so much.
Enjoy
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 18, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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Horrendous!
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Trump
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 07:54am PT
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In interacting with the city officials who voted to remove bolts on property that they didn’t even understand that they didn’t own, I’m just wondering, did any of them use the term covfefe? We might find that other people don’t behave the way we expect them to, and we might need to readjust our expectations of them in order to achieve the outcomes we prefer. Hope you’re able to become better at that than I am! But sorry that you weren’t able to arrange the outcome you prefer this past go round.
Sounds like you put in a lot of effort doing something that you like to do, and that members of our climbing tribe might have benefitted from, but that other people, maybe people who are not in our climbing tribe, people like the property owner, didn’t want you to do it, and don’t like that you did it. Would have been nice if you had been appreciated for the beneficial side effects of doing what you like to do rather than feeling bad as a result of the detrimental ones that the property owner sees. Thanks for your effort regardless.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:11am PT
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Our inordinate increases in climbing population are making access an even more important factor than it was in the past. As has been noted above, public use of private land is a complicated and often emotional issue. One that requires everyone think very carefully before acting. The simple existence of public pressure necessarily forces landowners to deal with that pressure EARLY and this represents an imposed continuing cost in time and money. Holt's Ledge was made even more complicated when Dartmouth began using its property to support its educational programs without putting in place a management effort to deal with the increased public pressure certain to follow.
What has to follow can only be described as "hard work." In the early 70's the Mohonk Trust held a "Climbers' Meeting" to get input on how to approach problems surfacing in the Gunks. That meeting formed the foundation for all that followed. That meeting came EARLY. Something like that meeting might occur were principals in the Access Fund to get together with Dartmouth, Lyme's town officials, and directly affected neighbors to talk over what might be done and how any action might be funded. Its purpose would be for exploration and not that of advocacy. Advocacy is a part of the public input forming the foundation for any and all subsequent direct action.
Which of the principals might best assume the lead on an effort? In the Gunks the owner of the land took on the leading role.
Edit:
I have often wondered why Mohonk welcomed Fritz and Hans as it did, and thus made possible the Gunks as we know them. I think many do not know that Dan Smiley operated the longest continuous weather station in the US. He thought it would be valuable so he just did it. He was a man of action. And I was standing there at the water pipe when he voiced a sardonic comment. Dan was clearly a climber. If he had not been bearing so much responsibility I am convinced Dan would have been a truly fine climber. It was a very great honor for me to work with him.
It is a shame that we realize how lucky we have been, only after we have gotten too old to do anything about it.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sep 19, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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Thanks to that guy ,aye,Mr. Stannard.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
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We did have meetings with the access fund and town before we knew the town did not own the cliff. we had a workable plan approved but then one resident with a personal beef started a very strong campaine to get us shut down. lots of lies and exagerations and a ton of pressing the flesh. he was very successful. By the time it got to a vote the sheep just wanted our heads on a stick.
Access is no longer an issue. The cliff is open for climbing. Dartmouth has placed signs directing climbers to stay on Dartmouth property. they just want you to top rope a 90m cliff or stick to the 3 or 4 super scary trad climbs. there are two excellent trad climbs. a 35m desert wide 10+ that still has anchors on top of it. S crack is another hard 10 but more face climbing. fairly spicy and safest to do as one long 60m pitch as the pin belay at 30m sucks. I don't know if the one 35 yr old bolt on the slab at the top survived?? would suck to get up there and find out it was missing.....
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JohnnyG
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
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I don't know if the one 35 yr old bolt on the slab at the top survived?? would suck to get up there and find out it was missing.....
That bolt was destroyed. They didn't remove it, just f'd up the old hanger. Sad.
Mr Roger's history is pretty good. But there is no dispute now over land ownership. All agree it's Dartmouth land.
To those who might think we should replace the bolts in a renegade operation...PLEASE PLEASE don't do it.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 19, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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I feel your pain...
Got these back from the person paid to remove them.
No doubt I processed the whole thing through the classic stages of grief (probably hovered on anger a bit...ha ha). I might be cautiously at some level of acceptance. Sorta.
Gives me some comfort knowing that the rock is still there, the routes are too and my experience still counts for me.
Heavy sigh. Breathe. Remember the fun and people involved.
Kinda hard to move on and not want to run this type of stuff up the flag pole. I'm not sure but maybe I took the higher ground. Probably have some level of peace with it.
Good luck.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:35pm PT
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There are two amygdalae per person normally, with one amygdala on each side of the brain. They are thought to be a part of the limbic system within the brain, which is responsible for emotions, survival instincts, and memory.
Upon seeing a destroyed bolt some feel the desire to do violence to someone or something. Immediately. This is the amygdala, also called the lizard brain, doing its thing. Here is a trick useful for adapting our behaviors constructively. Immediately as the rush is sensed you think,"OK. I'll form an opinion or take other action only after fifteen seconds have gone by." Just 15 heart beats. After 15 seconds many options. most of which are also are more effective, become available.
Not to be used when facing a grizzly, however.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
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It might be a case of adverse possession, uphill battle though
I immediately thought of an easement by prescription. My other thought, however, was whether anyone informed the Access Fund. We need to take advantage of their expertise.
In any case, the incompetent destruction of the bolts deserves condemnation, regardless of any other confusion or mistakes. We climb on a limited rock resource. Even removing routes requires respect for the medium.
John
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