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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Micronut, I must disagree with you. If no one climbed below another party on the Nose far few people would get to experience one of the world's great climbs. Does your reasoning also apply to the many people who crag at the base of El Cap daily?
Yeah Jim totally. What I'm saying is that I would take full responsibility for climbing underneath other people in the event I was injured by somebody dropping something. Its a known and measurable risk. Climbing any route with people above you is a choice and a calculation we all need to consider. Really hard to avoid on many of the best climbs around but one to think about nonetheless. Does that make sense?
Its a bummer, especially when noobs abound. I'd be angry if...
SCENARIO #1
A noob pulls off a notoriously loose block on a trade route above me....or they drop a pack on me from the top of Cathedral Peak on a crowded Saturday...but I'd have to admit I was a fool for not being the first on the route on a weekend on a busy Supertopo Trade Route.
I'd probably be less angry in SCENARIO #2
A backcountry route... some super competent climbers above knock down some rocks, yell "ROCK ROCK ROCK!!!!" then holler down apologies and check in on us. But then I'd still kick myself for not being first on the route and for knowingly climbing under other parties. I try to avoid it at all costs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Also, they passed the party despite being asked not to.
We need a long talk on passing protocol.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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So who's going to start the official black-list thread of climbers that are ok to lawyer up?
;)
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RussianBot
climber
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I don’t find it entirely unreasonable to say that all of our climbing heroes who have died doing what they and we love to do died because of their negligence. But I don’t expect that’s the response that you’re likely to get from the other climbers here, even the ones who do believe you’re the one who was negligent.
In law, it’s not the best facts win, it’s the best argument wins. Get a good arguer and you might have a shot.
Thanks for your honesty, and best of luck to you on your recovery!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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HEAVENLY MARITAL HELP
Betty and Tim die in a car accident on the eve of their wedding. In Heaven, they ask St. Peter if they can still be married.
"Well, let me find out if this is possible. Stay here and I will be right back."
Six months pass and Peter returns. "Yes, we can do this for you."
The couple asks, "Well, as we have spent so much time together waiting for your answer, we need to know that if things don't work out, is there a possibility that we can be divorced?"
To which St. Peter answers, "It took me six months to find a priest up here -- how long do you think it will take me to find a lawyer?"
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Paul,
I am just so sorry that you went through this and are still going through this. I am so sorry for your pain and suffering. I am sorry for your trauma.
If this happened to me, I would appreciate it if the party above expressed their sympathy for the accident. But not for one second would I expect the party above to admit any kind of legal responsibility or negligence. Because then the injured party could go to court and say "this person has admitted such and such". So it doesn't surprise me that you have not heard from Jonathan.
If I felt it was a situation where legal redress was needed, I would consult a lawyer. If they think you have a good case, they'll take your case on a contingency basis. If they won't, this is sending you a message.
To Jonathan, who undoubtably has been advised to stay silent through all of this. I am also sorry that you went through this and are still going through this. I am sorry for your mental suffering and trauma you may be experiencing as a result of this incident.
Climbing accidents suck.
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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What I'm saying is that I would take full responsibility for climbing underneath other people in the event I was injured by somebody dropping something.
This is entirely situational. Would you feel the same way if the upper party was intentionally trundling rock off or throwing haul bags off and they knew you were below?
How about the scenario where the upper party rappels in above you and knocks rocks off onto you. I watched with amazement the jackassery of two guys who rapped off the top of Daff Dome on a busy July afternoon and, with multiple parties below, proceeded to clean loose rock off some new route they had their sights set on.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Yeah you're right Bob. It would be somewhat situational but for the most part I'm saying we all take responsibility and I know that it is a choice most of the time to climb knowingly with people above us.
In most cases in life, there is a difference between fault and responsibility. Maybe it's not your fault your dad hit you as a kid but it is your responsibility to grow up and not be that kind of man. Maybe it's not your fault that your girlfriend or wife cheats on you but it is your responsibility to find out what portion of the relationship you could have done better and how you can be a better boyfriend or husband in the future. Maybe it's not your fault Trump is in office but it's your responsibility not to be a whiner and a complainer and to dig in and serve in your own community. I think it's a question and a delineation much of society ( especially today's uber-litigious society ) should think about a bit more often.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Chouinard got sued but never successfully.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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still no answers to two genuinely asked questions that might make a difference to this supposed attempt at a public "conversation":
1. does Paul believe that the bag was dropped intentionally?
2. is Paul leaving open the possibility of suing, if Jonathon doesn't agree to Paul's "requests"?
cause without these answers, if i was Jonathon, i wouldn't even bother wasting money on contacting a lawyer at this point and sure as hell would not agree to "mediation" assuming i didn't have insurance...
moreso, without transparency regarding the two questions above the attempts at colouring this with a similar brush to michael kennedy's open letter to his now dead son, were the heighth of strategic emotional cynicism.
i think it's time for me to go have a shower to hopefully remove some of the emotional ick... and assuming all we get is silence on the part of the o.p., this will be the last time i contribute to what is now appearing to be a good ole fashioned attempt at mob justice enflamed emotionally driven blackmail...
irony is i've contributed to a number of gofundmes and the like on this site for situations that were a lot less shItty than yours Paul... assuming no further info, not a chance at this point.
[oh yeah, and someoneanyone? yeah your example is ludicrous to me because you are comparing apples to oranges... no one has to climb to get to their job, or to go to school, or to in general be a part of society/collective organization... climbing is a completely different game than driving a car and so at least to this point there has, historically at least, been a completely separate set of societal "contracts" in place even if they have been informal... like i said: the day a regional group of folks decide they all need to carry liability insurance to cover their accidental negligence while climbing is the day that region gets struck from the list of places i want to climb... and that's because all the above would mean is that there would be a chance that i'd have to waste my time with court systems and lawyers even if i had insurance... thanks to nutagain's suggestion that region so far only includes climbs with someoneanyone and donini - but if i read his comment correctly and didn't miss a tongue in cheeked intention then the latter is apparently only when he is climbing in the u.s. - ha!]
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WBraun
climber
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VASYL LOMACHENKO is bad ass.
I bet nobody on this forum knows about him ......
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colin rowe
Trad climber
scotland uk
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I initially thought that the American Alpine Club by joining and included in the membership would include civic and public liability. This does not appear to be the case. Perhaps a case could be made for the American Alpine Club to provide civic and public liability as part of the membership fee. As a member of Mountaineering Scotland civic and public liability is included in membership.
In 1986 I was climbing the Walker Spur. It was a very dry year. There were parties above. Just before entering the Red Chimneys high on the route a climber had been injured because of stonefall; the climber was awaiting a helicopter rescue. Nevertheless, I climbed into the Red Chimney's knowing that any dislodged stonewall from above would be funnelled by the chimney's and the risk of being hit was high and immediate. I wasn't hit but I remember thinking I was reckless.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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pretty much everyone would throw him to the wolfs if he trundled the bag on purpose. as for dropping something important by accident. we have all done it and there is no such thing as good faith in putting yourself in harms way. you simply put your head down and hope for the best. it is a choice you make. We are likely all in favor of a go fund me for the medical bills and those have been massively successful lately. the idea of punishment and litigations turns almost all of us off.. Of course now this go fund me is tainted by the threat of litigation....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Moral of the story: The early bird's sh#t will land on the not-so early bird. Be the early bird.
Be careful out there. There are fortunately only a few f*#ktard climbers, and they will/do through negligence/carelessness cause harm/death. Lawsuits will happen.
We all were inexperienced, some get better instruction than others.
Is the mentality that a drunk driver who has caused a death might state, "People know that there are drunk drivers on the road, that was a chance she took when she left her driveway." and have it deemed credible logic?
Accidents will happen, needless harm to climbers below should be avoided.
Yes, even responsible climbers will have sh#t happen. Climb responsible, even more so if people are below you.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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phylp wrote:
If this happened to me, I would appreciate it if the party above expressed their sympathy for the accident. But not for one second would I expect the party above to admit any kind of legal responsibility or negligence. Because then the injured party could go to court and say "this person has admitted such and such". So it doesn't surprise me that you have not heard from Jonathan.
I also put myself in the shoes of both involved in this accident Paul and Johnathan. If I would f*#k up with my haul bag clipping and it fell on someone below I would definitely at least expressed my sympathy for the accident to the injured climber. As to formally "admit any kind of legal responsibility or negligence" - the fact that my haul bag become un-clipped- this is fact of negligence recorded in SAR rescue report.
Likewise in case of being in position of injured by someone dropping haulbag on me - I would expect that this person contact me and explain himself. And because Johnathan did not do this - this is most disturbing part , which I would bother me most [ and probably Paul too]. Everyone can made mistakes, the difference is how you handle them
For me there is clear analogy to driving hit [unintentional] and run accident.
And some blames on Paul that he climbed in El Cap base taking big risk [ because some aid climbers climbed above] is really unfair- thousands of people climb in El Cap base and failing haul bag on your head is last consideration of risk you taking climbing there.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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What are some of the many “justifiable” reasons for putting yourself in harms way by climbing below other climbers that would hold up in a court of law ? I don’t think “because everyone else is doing it” would hold up in court. Honest question. Thanks
Edit: to rescue someone?
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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I hear what people are saying about climbing under other parties and the objective hazards involved in climbing but I think this situation is a bit different. I'm more than willing to accept falling rock and the occasional dropped carabiner as objective hazards but a dropped haul bag is totally avoidable if you know what you are doing. You should have that sh*t backed up 6 ways from Sunday. As a party rapping It is my responsibility to descend safely and not to send a 100 pound missile down the cliff. I believe dropping your haul bag does count as gross negligence in the same way that an earlier poster used the analogy of reckless driving. Driving a car does involves accepting risk but if someone is reckless and hurts someone they can legally be held accountable for their actions. The hard part is proving negligence and then deciding what sort of damages are reasonable based on the events.
Also If I was the party responsible and dropped a bag I would feel like sh*t and would be morally obliged to make reparations for my mistake that ended up injuring someone else.
my 2 cents
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Was it gross negligence? Good luck finding a lawyer.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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spanky - did you even read the accident report?
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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I did read the accident report. From what I can tell they had 2 slings holding the bag but the locker was unlocked. Every time I have rapped with a bag they always get caught on something and I generally have 2 lockers to make things as redundant as possible. I was actually in the valley at the time and climbed the shield ahead of the party that dropped the bag. I do believe that dropping the bag constitutes negligence but proving that in a court is a different story.
I guess I'm just surprised that no one seems to think that the dude who dropped the bag is responsible in some way.
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